Red Light Ticket

moonshield · Post by **moonshield** » Fri May 02, 2014 10:16 pm

Can I fight this?

I cannot get to work without riding through a 4-way intersection that sits right next to a police academy. Because of its location, this intersection's default position is red lights on all 4 sides of traffic flow. There is no light changing schedule, it is always red until it detects the weight of a car.

My Buddy scooter does not weigh enough to trip the sensor so I have to run this red light just about every single day.

My only other options are wait for another car to finally show up, which could take up to 20 minutes at this spot, or turn right, make an illegal u-turn in the Dodger's Stadium access road, then another right.

I've been stopping at the light for several months now, then proceeding to run the light when I see that it's safe, but an officer finally busted me. $490 ticket

jrstone · Post by **jrstone** » Fri May 02, 2014 10:26 pm

What state do you live in? What you did is legal here. The police aren't always familiar with every law though.

jrstone · Post by **jrstone** » Fri May 02, 2014 10:26 pm

I guess Dodger's stadium should have been a clue...

scootERIK · Post by **scootERIK** » Sat May 03, 2014 12:38 am

You need to do a search for a law like this in your state-
"Red light law
Wis. 346.37(1)(c)4
4. Notwithstanding subd. 1., a motorcycle, moped, motor bicycle, or bicycle facing a red signal at an intersection may, after stopping as required under subd. 1. for not less than 45 seconds, proceed cautiously through the intersection before the signal turns green if no other vehicles are present at the intersection to actuate the signal and the operator of the motorcycle, moped, motor bicycle, or bicycle reasonably believes the signal is vehicle actuated. The operator of a motorcycle, moped, motor bicycle, or bicycle proceeding through a red signal under this subdivision shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicular traffic, pedestrian, bicyclist, or rider of an electric personal assistive mobility device proceeding through a green signal at the intersection or lawfully within a crosswalk or using the intersection. This subdivision does not affect any authorization for a bicyclist under subd. 2."

States with a "dead red" law that lets you go through red lights.
State, year law was added. "location" of law
1. Minnesota 2002 Chapter 169, Section 06, Subdivision 9(a)
2. Tennessee 2003 Title 55, Chapter 8, Section 110(b)
3. Arkansas 2005 Title 27, Subti. 4, Ch. 52, Subch. 2, Sec. 206,
4. Idaho 2006 Title 49, Chapter 8, Section 49-802(3)(e),
5. Wisconsin 2006 Chapter 346, Subchapter 6, Section 346.37(c)
6. North Carolina 2007 Chapter 20, Article 2, Section 158(e)
7. South Carolina 2008 Title 56, Chapter, Section 970 (C)(5)
8. Missouri 2009 Chapter 304, Section 285
9. Oklahoma 2010 Title 47, Section 11-202
10. Virginia ~2010 § 46.2-833.B
11. California
12. Utah 41-6a-305. Subsection (4)(a)
13 Kansas 2011
14. Washington
15. Nevada
16. Indiana 2014 Sec. 13.5. IC 9-21-3-7(b)(3)(D) not 100% this is right, it is so new not all the websites are up to date.

If any knows the specific law locations for the the last 6 states let me know and I can add them.

KrispyKreme · Post by **KrispyKreme** » Sat May 03, 2014 12:55 am

I can "flick" my high beams to trip them in Charlotte.

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Sat May 03, 2014 1:01 am

Fight it. California has to have a clause about triggering stop lights somewhere. I just can't be bothered at the moment trying to find it....

skipper20 · Post by **skipper20** » Sat May 03, 2014 2:07 am

Drum Pro wrote:Fight it. California has to have a clause about triggering stop lights somewhere. I just can't be bothered at the moment trying to find it....

Check scootERIK's post above. California is on his list. BTW, if the intersection has what looks like a 5' or 6' circle in the pavement, sometimes stopping your scooter while you're within the circle will trigger the stop light sensor. I have one near my house and I can usually get it to turn the light to green.

Bill in Seattle
'12 170i Italia

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Sat May 03, 2014 2:27 am

For the future: If this is an intersection you go through frequently, notify the city or county or whatever entity is responsible for it of what the problem is. They may be able to adjust the sensor to detect when a scooter is waiting to go.

Quo Vadimus · Post by **Quo Vadimus** » Sat May 03, 2014 4:23 am

Everything you ever wanted to know about inductive-loop detector systems. Just a heads-up that it's not weight, but magnetic field disturbance, that trips most sensors. Not much practical difference when you're sat there and nothing's happening, but it might help you sound like you know what you're talking about if you end up in front of a judge.

http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledr ... ection.htm

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Sat May 03, 2014 5:17 am

scootERIK wrote:If any knows the specific law locations for the the last 7 states let me know and I can add them.

Yes, Virginia - § 46.2-833.B. to wit

B. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, if a driver of a motorcycle or moped or a bicycle rider approaches an intersection that is controlled by a traffic light, the driver or rider may proceed through the intersection on a steady red light only if the driver or rider (i) comes to a full and complete stop at the intersection for two complete cycles of the traffic light or for two minutes, whichever is shorter, (ii) exercises due care as provided by law, (iii) otherwise treats the traffic control device as a stop sign, (iv) determines that it is safe to proceed, and (v) yields the right of way to the driver of any vehicle approaching on such other highway from either direction.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Sat May 03, 2014 12:23 pm

For anyone who lives in a state that doesn't have a provision that specifically allows this, it might be worth your while to contest the ticket anyway (especially with a fine that hefty). Either plead "not guilty" or "guilty with an explanation" and explain the circumstances. To save time they often allow you to do the latter with just a letter rather than a court appearance. The judge or magistrate will probably still find you guilty, but (if they understand their role in society) make it a lesser charge, and/or reduce the fine. (There's also a chance that a not-guilty plea and a court appearance will result in the officer not showing up, and the case being dismissed.)

scootERIK · Post by **scootERIK** » Sat May 03, 2014 3:23 pm

jrsjr wrote:Yes, Virginia - § 46.2-833.B. to wit

Thanks, added to list.

I tried to find California's but couldn't. It must be newer than 2012.

moonshield can at least try and fight it on the grounds of a faulty signal-

21450.5. (a) A traffic-actuated signal is an official traffic
control signal, as specified in Section 445, that displays one or
more of its indications in response to the presence of traffic
detected by mechanical, visual, electrical, or other means.
(b) Upon the first placement of a traffic-actuated signal or
replacement of the loop detector of a traffic-actuated signal, the
traffic-actuated signal shall, to the extent feasible and in
conformance with professional traffic engineering practice, be
installed and maintained so as to detect lawful bicycle or motorcycle
traffic on the roadway.
(c) Cities, counties, and cities and counties shall not be
required to comply with the provisions contained in subdivision (b)
until the Department of Transportation, in consultation with these
entities, has established uniform standards, specifications, and
guidelines for the detection of bicycles and motorcycles by
traffic-actuated signals and related signal timing.
(d) This section shall remain in effect only until January 1,
2018, and as of that date is repealed, unless a later enacted
statute, that is enacted before January 1, 2018, deletes or extends
that date

guzziknight · Post by **guzziknight** » Sat May 03, 2014 5:51 pm

A lot of judges are sympathetic to this situation. I've heard of many cases where they dismiss the case if you can show it's a problem light. I'd go to court and talk to the solicitor and/or the judge, especially if your driving record is clean.

charlie55 · Post by **charlie55** » Sat May 03, 2014 7:08 pm

scootERIK wrote: Thanks, added to list.

I tried to find California's but couldn't. It must be newer than 2012.

moonshield can at least try and fight it on the grounds of a faulty signal-

21450.5. (a) A traffic-actuated signal is an official traffic
control signal, as specified in Section 445, that displays one or
more of its indications in response to the presence of traffic
detected by mechanical, visual, electrical, or other means.
(b) Upon the first placement of a traffic-actuated signal or
replacement of the loop detector of a traffic-actuated signal, the
traffic-actuated signal shall, to the extent feasible and in
conformance with professional traffic engineering practice, be
installed and maintained so as to detect lawful bicycle or motorcycle
traffic on the roadway.
(c) Cities, counties, and cities and counties shall not be
required to comply with the provisions contained in subdivision (b)
until the Department of Transportation, in consultation with these
entities, has established uniform standards, specifications, and
guidelines for the detection of bicycles and motorcycles by
traffic-actuated signals and related signal timing.
(d) This section shall remain in effect only until January 1,
2018, and as of that date is repealed, unless a later enacted
statute, that is enacted before January 1, 2018, deletes or extends
that date

For English speakers, this reads as:

(a) This section serves to define the highly technical term "traffic-actuated signal" since it is foreign to most people of ordinary intelligence, and we really need to cover our asses in case someone sues us when they get rear-ended after stopping at a lawn Flamingo and waiting for it to change color. Actually, the idea is so complex that we had to cite another section here.
(b) The fulfillment of all duties incumbent upon this governing authority are contingent upon their feasibility. Naturally, we get to determine feasibility. We acknowledge the concept of "professional traffic engineering practice", even though we might later regret it. Finally, only lawful bicycles and motorcycles will be detectable under the provisions stated in this statute. Unlawful vehicles of these types will be invisible.
(c) Well, we knew that that "professional traffic engineering" thing in the previous section might be a problem, so we'll let the DOT try to figure things out. Until they do, you can just disregard everything we've said so far.
(d)All of this stuff will be in effect until it isn't. But it might not go out of effect unless it does.

47909Rider · Post by **47909Rider** » Mon May 05, 2014 11:40 am

scootERIK wrote: 17. Indiana 2014 Sec. 13.5. IC 9-21-3-7(b)(3)(D) not 100% this is right, it is so new not all the websites are up to date.

The online version of the Indiana Code hasn't been updated yet, but the "Dead Red" law DID pass here. Thankfully. We've got a lot of bike-unfriendly lights. Even my big motorcycle won't trigger many of them.

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Mon May 05, 2014 1:54 pm

Colorado has had something similar for a year. works very well at a few intersections.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Mon May 05, 2014 6:28 pm

The Arizona Revised Statutes, Title 28-645C states:

C. The driver of a vehicle approaching an intersection that has an official traffic control signal that is inoperative shall bring the vehicle to a complete stop before entering the intersection and may proceed with caution only when it is safe to do so. If two or more vehicles approach an intersection from different streets or highways at approximately the same time and the official traffic control signal for the intersection is inoperative, the driver of each vehicle shall bring the vehicle to a complete stop before entering the intersection and the driver of the vehicle on the left shall yield the right-of-way to the driver of the vehicle on the right.

That's as close to a "Dead Red" provision as I can find.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Mon May 05, 2014 9:01 pm

Syd wrote:The Arizona Revised Statutes, Title 28-645C states:
C. The driver of a vehicle approaching an intersection that has an official traffic control signal that is inoperative ....
That's as close to a "Dead Red" provision as I can find.

I would assume that most states have some kind of provision like this for how to deal with traffic signals that are out due to power failure or whatever. The trick would be arguing that a traffic light with a sensor that doesn't detect you is "inoperative" (so you followed this procedure). Certainly worth a try if you find yourself with a ticket, but don't have a proper dead-red statute to use.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Mon May 05, 2014 11:07 pm

TVB wrote:
Syd wrote:The Arizona Revised Statutes, Title 28-645C states:
C. The driver of a vehicle approaching an intersection that has an official traffic control signal that is inoperative ....
That's as close to a "Dead Red" provision as I can find.
I would assume that most states have some kind of provision like this for how to deal with traffic signals that are out due to power failure or whatever. The trick would be arguing that a traffic light with a sensor that doesn't detect you is "inoperative" (so you followed this procedure). Certainly worth a try if you find yourself with a ticket, but don't have a proper dead-red statute to use.

Agreed. And as I have a light very near my work that never turns for mine or any other's bike, and I have to turn left at that light, I expect I will have to argue that Statute some day.

CapnK · Post by **CapnK** » Tue May 06, 2014 3:50 am

charlie55 wrote: For English speakers, this reads as:

(a) This section serves to define the highly technical term "traffic-actuated signal" since it is foreign to most people of ordinary intelligence, and we really need to cover our asses in case someone sues us when they get rear-ended after stopping at a lawn Flamingo and waiting for it to change color. Actually, the idea is so complex that we had to cite another section here.
(b) The fulfillment of all duties incumbent upon this governing authority are contingent upon their feasibility. Naturally, we get to determine feasibility. We acknowledge the concept of "professional traffic engineering practice", even though we might later regret it. Finally, only lawful bicycles and motorcycles will be detectable under the provisions stated in this statute. Unlawful vehicles of these types will be invisible.
(c) Well, we knew that that "professional traffic engineering" thing in the previous section might be a problem, so we'll let the DOT try to figure things out. Until they do, you can just disregard everything we've said so far.
(d)All of this stuff will be in effect until it isn't. But it might not go out of effect unless it does.

Not to make this political but - I'm voting charlie55 for President, next time around.

Maybe then we'll be able to understand some of this mumbo-jumbo law stuff we all wind up paying for...

moonshield · Post by **moonshield** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:50 pm

I started this thread and I just wanted to follow up from my trial this morning.

There were a lot of people in the courtroom fighting various types of red light violations, most of their cases were thrown out because the officers didn't show up (even some people who admitted guilt to me while we were waiting in line!) But of course... My officer showed up.

I explained how I am forced to run this red light every day because it is faulty and does not detect my lawful vehicle, I even cited Section 21450.5 recommended by scootERIK above, but the judge basically threw it out suggesting it was not specific enough to this case.

I also cited the California "Dead Red" law (the house bill that was passed in march 2014 which allows motorcyclists to proceed through red light intersections if they are not triggered) but since the actual law hadn't made it into the judge's books yet, there was no proof it exists.

The accusing officer was pretty cold hearted and fought pretty hard to bring a guilty verdict. I'll probably run into her again too since I live right next to the police academy and I ride a bright orange scooter...

In the end, the judge found me guilty, but reduced my sentence, and allowed me to sign up for traffic school. Of the $490 I paid to post bail, $347 will be returned to me after court fees.

Howardr · Post by **Howardr** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:02 pm

I have a similar issue with the stoplight at the gate of my place of work. If there isn't another vehicle there, I can't trigger it. My solution: I make a right turn, go a couple hunder feet, make a U-turn and go about my business.

I know this won't work for everyone, because U-turns aren't legal everywhere, but ot's okay here in AZ.

Good luck,

Howard

KrispyKreme · Post by **KrispyKreme** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:07 pm

skully93 wrote:Colorado has had something similar for a year. works very well at a few intersections.

I am digging recently passed laws in your state.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:01 pm

moonshield wrote:In the end, the judge found me guilty, but reduced my sentence, and allowed me to sign up for traffic school. Of the $490 I paid to post bail, $347 will be returned to me after court fees.

That sucks. About 25% of the lights in my area of CA won't trigger with my scooter. I'm constantly running them. That means I'll probably get nailed one of these days. It sounds like your judge and cop were revenue raising aholes.

charlie55 · Post by **charlie55** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:14 pm

moonshield wrote:I started this thread and I just wanted to follow up from my trial this morning.

There were a lot of people in the courtroom fighting various types of red light violations, most of their cases were thrown out because the officers didn't show up (even some people who admitted guilt to me while we were waiting in line!) But of course... My officer showed up.

I explained how I am forced to run this red light every day because it is faulty and does not detect my lawful vehicle, I even cited Section 21450.5 recommended by scootERIK above, but the judge basically threw it out suggesting it was not specific enough to this case.

I also cited the California "Dead Red" law (the house bill that was passed in march 2014 which allows motorcyclists to proceed through red light intersections if they are not triggered) but since the actual law hadn't made it into the judge's books yet, there was no proof it exists.

The accusing officer was pretty cold hearted and fought pretty hard to bring a guilty verdict. I'll probably run into her again too since I live right next to the police academy and I ride a bright orange scooter...

In the end, the judge found me guilty, but reduced my sentence, and allowed me to sign up for traffic school. Of the $490 I paid to post bail, $347 will be returned to me after court fees.

Bail? On a traffic ticket? What the hell is that all about? What do they do if you get into a fender-bender, burn you at the stake?

And what's the point of traffic school. You already know the rules; it's the goddamned municipality that's at fault here.

Can you contact a city/town representative and complain to them? Contact the local papers or radio/TV station and see if they're interested in covering this. People always love the"little guy Vs. bureaucratic monster" stories.

Sheesh!

Christophers · Post by **Christophers** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:34 pm

k1dude wrote:
moonshield wrote:In the end, the judge found me guilty, but reduced my sentence, and allowed me to sign up for traffic school. Of the $490 I paid to post bail, $347 will be returned to me after court fees.
That sucks. About 25% of the lights in my area of CA won't trigger with my scooter. I'm constantly running them. That means I'll probably get nailed one of these days. It sounds like your judge and cop were revenue raising aholes.

To me it sounds like a judge who is more interested in clearing his docket than in serving justice...

Sorry to hear about the results of your trial.

JettaKnight · Post by **JettaKnight** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:27 pm

Police academy, huh? Sounds like a cop trying to figure life out...

$400+ is crazy. glad they dropped it down, but should have been to $0 since the law will soon go into effect.

Stinkdyr · Post by **Stinkdyr** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:21 am

You exist to pay taxes and fines to support the gubment employees and welfare rats who continually re-elect them.

and we thought slavery was dead!

VinylDoctor · Post by **VinylDoctor** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:38 am

plus a 50cc is classified as a motorized bike.
which wont trip the switch either, and they don't make bikes wait for a light. use bike hand signals.

Tazio · Post by **Tazio** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:08 pm

It's great you fought the tickect but sorry you lost.

A good way to handle tickets in CA is to wait until just before the scheduled court date (usually 3 months) and then request an extention. That will give you three more months.

Just before that new date request to do a written explanation. You have to pay the fine at this time. That will give you another 3 months. Submit your written paper just before the due date and wait, usually several months.

If they find you not guilty you get a refund. If guilty you can request another court date. That will give you another 3 months. I don't know if you can request an extention for that date but it might be possible.

After a year plus if the officer shows for that court date you can still do what you did but at least you made them work for your money.

Christophers · Post by **Christophers** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:48 pm

Tazio wrote:It's great you fought the tickect but sorry you lost.

A good way to handle tickets in CA is to wait until just before the scheduled court date (usually 3 months) and then request an extention...

...After a year plus if the officer shows for that court date you can still do what you did but at least you made them work for your money.

I like the way you think.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:41 pm

Actually, here is California's current law, and it doesn't look like much help until the State creates actual standards for how the actuators must function.

Traffic-Actuated Signals: Detection of Motorcycles and Bicycles
21450.5. (a) A traffic-actuated signal is an official traffic
control signal, as specified in Section 445, that displays one or
more of its indications in response to the presence of traffic
detected by mechanical, visual, electrical, or other means.
(b) Upon the first placement of a traffic-actuated signal or
replacement of the loop detector of a traffic-actuated signal, the
traffic-actuated signal shall, to the extent feasible and in
conformance with professional traffic engineering practice, be
installed and maintained so as to detect lawful bicycle or motorcycle
traffic on the roadway.
(c) Cities, counties, and cities and counties shall not be
required to comply with the provisions contained in subdivision (b)
until the Department of Transportation, in consultation with these
entities, has established uniform standards, specifications, and
guidelines for the detection of bicycles and motorcycles by
traffic-actuated signals and related signal timing.
(d) This section shall remain in effect only until January 1,
2018, and as of that date is repealed, unless a later enacted
statute, that is enacted before January 1, 2018, deletes or extends
that date.

agrogod · Post by **agrogod** » Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:21 am

^ Hey charlie55 put this into lay-mans speak.

charlie55 · Post by **charlie55** » Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:59 am

agrogod wrote:^ Hey charlie55 put this into lay-mans speak.

There's no need for you to understand
The undecipherable law of the land
Just shut up and pay
Or your scoot's hauled away
It all works out just as we planned

Christophers · Post by **Christophers** » Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:02 am

charlie55 wrote:
agrogod wrote:^ Hey charlie55 put this into lay-mans speak.
There's no need for you to understand
The undecipherable law of the land
Just shut up and pay
Or your scoot's hauled away
It all works out just as we planned

Ha ha! Bravo! Bravo!

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:59 am

Too late now, but, the MB guide to triggering lights:
viewtopic.php?p=247000#247000

Like it or not, we're still bound to the laws on the books where we ride. It's good to be familiar with them before we get nicked for violating them.