I hate the DMV.

[Ninjasurfergirl]

Anyone have issues moving with their scooter?

I moved from GA to NY this year, and in NY, I have to register my 50cc Buddy. I also have to have insurance, which I didn't need in GA. So I purchase my insurance, get all my paperwork together, and head to the DMV to register my scooter. Under the manufacturer, my title says "Moti", which is Motive Power Industry (or something like that), the parent company of PGO. Well the DMV didn't like that and refused to register my scooter until I could produce a title that says PGO.

So I contact Genuine, and have them issue a duplicate title that says PGO instead of Moti. They have to issue it to a dealer, so they issued it to the local Genuine dealer here. So I bring everything back to the DMV, the title that now says PGO, my proof of insurance, and bill of sale, but now they won't let me register it because I didn't purchase it from the dealership here. And they want me to produce ANOTHER bill of sale from the dealership I purchased it from. In Georgia.

So Genuine has to issue a triplicate title to the dealership in Savannah, GA, who then has to send it up here, along with another bill of sale. I'll bet they're going to try to get my to pay New York State tax as well since I lived in New York when this new bill of sale is being produced.

It has been over a month since this all started. It is my scooter, paid in full. I am not trying to register a stolen car, I'm trying to register a 50cc scooter. And I see Buddy's on the road over here at least once a week, which is extra frustrating. So my poor scooter is sitting in the parking lot, covered up, on all of these beautiful days, while riding season slips away.

I will admit, I rode a few times before attempting to register her, but now that I know I'm not allowed to ride, I'm convinced I'll get caught. Has anyone else ever dealt with crap like this? Because I'm pretty mad. I didn't buy a scooter for it to sit in the parking lot! And since I'm new in town, I have no idea what fun things there are to do, and exploring in my car is no fun, so I'm at home on a beautiful day when I could be scooting!

[TVB]

"The bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the universe." – Leonard McCoy, M.D.

[KrispyKreme]

"The bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the universe." – Leonard McCoy, M.D.

[az_slynch]

Sorry to read of your DMV pains. I'm all too familiar with the quagmire that anything dealing with vehicle titles. In Arizona, it's almost not worth buying a vehicle that is title-less. Even for mopeds, which are title-free and only need a bill-of-sale, it's a pain to process and requires the applicant to get a surety bond for the vehicle.

For bikes I've bought without titles, I usually haul them to our MVD (DMV for dyslexic Arizonans) and have them do a Level 1 inspection and VIN check before I lay a wrench to it. It'd suck to lose it, but it would be worse to fix it up nice and then have to turn it back over to the "owner".

[charlie55]

OK, here's a link to a document from the NHTSA website, proving that Motive Power Industries/PGO are one in the same, as determined by the WMI portion of the vehicle's VIN, which in this case are the letters "RFV".
Actually, they should be going by the WMI/VIN and not the manufacturer's name on the title, but most of the shitheads at the DMV can't count past 10 unless they're barefooted.

ftp://ftp.nhtsa.dot.gov/mfrmail/ORG2305.pdf

This classification is within the domain of the federal government and should be recognized by state DMVs (it is in NJ). This, along with your original title should be more than enough proof.

Additionally, they absolutely cannot make you pay NY sales tax on a vehicle purchased out of state and registered/titled there in a previous year. Your original GA title and the NHTSA document are all you need to prove the validity of the title and year of purchase.

You're obviously dealing with low-level (and low-intelligence) drones, so arm yourself with this document and all your other paperwork and be prepared to escalate and make a scene - it's the only way to get these half-wits to budge. I know - I lived in Brooklyn for 33 years and every transaction with the DMV was a virtual fistfight.

The NJ MVC tried pulling this same BS with me when I went to register and title my Blur. I directed them to their own website (which has a copy of NHTSA's approved manufacturer's list) and embarrassed the crap out of them for not knowing their own regulations.

[Ninjasurfergirl]

OK, here's a link to a document from the NHTSA website, proving that Motive Power Industries/PGO are one in the same, as determined by the WMI portion of the vehicle's VIN, which in this case are the letters "RFV".
Actually, they should be going by the WMI/VIN and not the manufacturer's name on the title, but most of the shitheads at the DMV can't count past 10 unless they're barefooted.

ftp://ftp.nhtsa.dot.gov/mfrmail/ORG2305.pdf

This classification is within the domain of the federal government and should be recognized by state DMVs (it is in NJ). This, along with your original title should be more than enough proof.

Additionally, they absolutely cannot make you pay NY sales tax on a vehicle purchased out of state and registered/titled there in a previous year. Your original GA title and the NHTSA document are all you need to prove the validity of the title and year of purchase.

You're obviously dealing with low-level (and low-intelligence) drones, so arm yourself with this document and all your other paperwork and be prepared to escalate and make a scene - it's the only way to get these half-wits to budge. I know - I lived in Brooklyn for 33 years and every transaction with the DMV was a virtual fistfight.

The NJ MVC tried pulling this same BS with me when I went to register and title my Blur. I directed them to their own website (which has a copy of NHTSA's approved manufacturer's list) and embarrassed the crap out of them for not knowing their own regulations.

OMG thank you so much. I'm going to arm myself with this and see if I can get my scooter registered! This is the most frustrating thing I've ever dealt with.

[k1dude]

The NJ MVC tried pulling this same BS with me when I went to register and title my Blur. I directed them to their own website (which has a copy of NHTSA's approved manufacturer's list) and embarrassed the crap out of them for not knowing their own regulations.

It doesn't always work. I've fought with the TSA, DMV, County, HOA's, Police, judges and many others armed with the actual laws and regulations. I can't tell you how many times I've been told they don't care what the law says. They give me the option to comply or appeal it all the way to the Supreme Court. They mostly dig in their heels and won't budge. Since I don't have the time, inclination, or millions of dollars to take it all the way to the Supreme Court, I lose every time. They know that too. They know no one has the time or money to do that - so they win. It always shocks me when people vote for even more and bigger government. Might as well beat your head with a hammer.

[jrsjr]

OK, here's a link to a document from the NHTSA website, proving that Motive Power Industries/PGO are one in the same, as determined by the WMI portion of the vehicle's VIN, which in this case are the letters "RFV".
Actually, they should be going by the WMI/VIN and not the manufacturer's name on the title, but most of the shitheads at the DMV can't count past 10 unless they're barefooted.

ftp://ftp.nhtsa.dot.gov/mfrmail/ORG2305.pdf

This classification is within the domain of the federal government and should be recognized by state DMVs (it is in NJ). This, along with your original title should be more than enough proof.

Additionally, they absolutely cannot make you pay NY sales tax on a vehicle purchased out of state and registered/titled there in a previous year. Your original GA title and the NHTSA document are all you need to prove the validity of the title and year of purchase.

You're obviously dealing with low-level (and low-intelligence) drones, so arm yourself with this document and all your other paperwork and be prepared to escalate and make a scene - it's the only way to get these half-wits to budge. I know - I lived in Brooklyn for 33 years and every transaction with the DMV was a virtual fistfight.

The NJ MVC tried pulling this same BS with me when I went to register and title my Blur. I directed them to their own website (which has a copy of NHTSA's approved manufacturer's list) and embarrassed the crap out of them for not knowing their own regulations.

OMG thank you so much. I'm going to arm myself with this and see if I can get my scooter registered! This is the most frustrating thing I've ever dealt with.

One other thing to arm yourself with is a polite but firm attitude. The whole thing sucks, but still be as polite as you can while being firm. Don't demand to see a supervisor first thing, but since you are in the right, it's perfectly okay to politely request to speak to a supervisor if you don't get anywhere with the first line employee. Good Luck!

[pattio]

1) Good luck to OP, I also hate the DMV and sympathize with your frustrating experience and hope you get it worked out.

2)I am feeling unclear if the conversation here is really about a 'title'.

New scooters are sent from the company to the selling dealer accompanied by a document usually called the certificate of origin. It's printed on fancy paper and looks like what we call a title, but its not. The certificate of origin may only be used by a licensed dealer to sell the bike to a buyer, at which point the buyer can register their bike in their state, and then the state issues a title.

Only a dealer, the entity with the retail license and tax identity, can 'sign' a certificate of origin. It cannot be used to transfer ownership between individuals. Only a state can issue a 'title'. You can see how this can cause this kind of inter-state confusion if one state, like GA, doesn't issue titles and then an owner wants to go to another state that requires them. You can understand where the title-required state, in this case NY, would have a justifiable mistrust of certificates of origin, since any fly-by-night importer of Fling-Poos can just print them up.

I understand that this observation doesn't help OP, she walked into the DMV with the documents she had and DMVs suck. I just mention this because the statement 'I got Genuine to print me another title' set off my alarm bells. Genuine can't provide anyone with a title, only your state government can. Hopefully OP comes out of this experience with a NY title and gets to get her scoot on soon.

[charlie55]

1) Good luck to OP, I also hate the DMV and sympathize with your frustrating experience and hope you get it worked out.

2)I am feeling unclear if the conversation here is really about a 'title'.

New scooters are sent from the company to the selling dealer accompanied by a document usually called the certificate of origin. It's printed on fancy paper and looks like what we call a title, but its not. The certificate of origin may only be used by a licensed dealer to sell the bike to a buyer, at which point the buyer can register their bike in their state, and then the state issues a title.

Only a dealer, the entity with the retail license and tax identity, can 'sign' a certificate of origin. It cannot be used to transfer ownership between individuals. Only a state can issue a 'title'. You can see how this can cause this kind of inter-state confusion if one state, like GA, doesn't issue titles and then an owner wants to go to another state that requires them. You can understand where the title-required state, in this case NY, would have a justifiable mistrust of certificates of origin, since any fly-by-night importer of Fling-Poos can just print them up.

I understand that this observation doesn't help OP, she walked into the DMV with the documents she had and DMVs suck. I just mention this because the statement 'I got Genuine to print me another title' set off my alarm bells. Genuine can't provide anyone with a title, only your state government can. Hopefully OP comes out of this experience with a NY title and gets to get her scoot on soon.

That's a good point - completely missed that. Still and all, the original MCO/MSO, bill of sale, and registration should have been enough if GA does not issue titles.

Seeing that the NY DMV's primary business is the registration/titling of vehicles, and given that not every vehicle in the U.S. was purchased in NY, it would be reasonable to expect that they know how to handle vehicles from title-less states (if that is the case with GA). Hell, prior to 1972 I believe NY itself did not issue titles on bikes, merely transferable registrations. So, they should be familiar with the concept. But that's probably asking too much from a staff that can be amused for hours by shiny objects.

[Ninjasurfergirl]

1) Good luck to OP, I also hate the DMV and sympathize with your frustrating experience and hope you get it worked out.

2)I am feeling unclear if the conversation here is really about a 'title'.

New scooters are sent from the company to the selling dealer accompanied by a document usually called the certificate of origin. It's printed on fancy paper and looks like what we call a title, but its not. The certificate of origin may only be used by a licensed dealer to sell the bike to a buyer, at which point the buyer can register their bike in their state, and then the state issues a title.

Only a dealer, the entity with the retail license and tax identity, can 'sign' a certificate of origin. It cannot be used to transfer ownership between individuals. Only a state can issue a 'title'. You can see how this can cause this kind of inter-state confusion if one state, like GA, doesn't issue titles and then an owner wants to go to another state that requires them. You can understand where the title-required state, in this case NY, would have a justifiable mistrust of certificates of origin, since any fly-by-night importer of Fling-Poos can just print them up.

I understand that this observation doesn't help OP, she walked into the DMV with the documents she had and DMVs suck. I just mention this because the statement 'I got Genuine to print me another title' set off my alarm bells. Genuine can't provide anyone with a title, only your state government can. Hopefully OP comes out of this experience with a NY title and gets to get her scoot on soon.

My bad, I thought title and MSO were the same thing. The bill of sale has the VIN and my insurance card has the VIN, so still, not sure why the issue! Heading to DMV tomorrow!

[libwitch]

Try going to another DMV office, too. It might just be as simple as how the people in that one office understand the rules (or choose to read them). I took my Buddy into the local DMV; the insurance is actually for PGO (and not motorcycle, which I thought would cause problems, but that was the only way he could get the insurance to go through) and she just looked at everything asked what PGO was, I told her, she shrugged and I got my registration.

[Ninjasurfergirl]

Try going to another DMV office, too. It might just be as simple as how the people in that one office understand the rules (or choose to read them). I took my Buddy into the local DMV; the insurance is actually for PGO (and not motorcycle, which I thought would cause problems, but that was the only way he could get the insurance to go through) and she just looked at everything asked what PGO was, I told her, she shrugged and I got my registration.

Yeah that's my plan. The one by me was seeming to be incredibly irrational. They said they recognized that PGO was the same thing as the MOTI, but said that since the MSO didn't say PGO, I couldn't register it. Which is ridiculous. I had everything else in order.

[charlie55]

Try going to another DMV office, too. It might just be as simple as how the people in that one office understand the rules (or choose to read them). I took my Buddy into the local DMV; the insurance is actually for PGO (and not motorcycle, which I thought would cause problems, but that was the only way he could get the insurance to go through) and she just looked at everything asked what PGO was, I told her, she shrugged and I got my registration.

Yeah that's my plan. The one by me was seeming to be incredibly irrational. They said they recognized that PGO was the same thing as the MOTI, but said that since the MSO didn't say PGO, I couldn't register it. Which is ridiculous. I had everything else in order.

Hhhhmmmm.......

Algebraic law of equality:

If A = B, then B = A.

DMV law of equality:

If PGO = MOTI, then MOTI ≠ PGI.

If these jackasses weren't cooped up at the DMV, emergency services would be spending the better part of each day extricating them from phone booths and revolving doors. I guess someone has to be the employer of last resort.

[KrispyKreme]

Try going to another DMV office, too. It might just be as simple as how the people in that one office understand the rules (or choose to read them). I took my Buddy into the local DMV; the insurance is actually for PGO (and not motorcycle, which I thought would cause problems, but that was the only way he could get the insurance to go through) and she just looked at everything asked what PGO was, I told her, she shrugged and I got my registration.

Yeah that's my plan. The one by me was seeming to be incredibly irrational. They said they recognized that PGO was the same thing as the MOTI, but said that since the MSO didn't say PGO, I couldn't register it. Which is ridiculous. I had everything else in order.

Hhhhmmmm.......

Algebraic law of equality:

If A = B, then B = A.

DMV law of equality:

If PGO = MOTI, then MOTI ≠ PGI.

If these jackasses weren't cooped up at the DMV, emergency services would be spending the better part of each day extricating them from phone booths and revolving doors. I guess someone has to be the employer of last resort.

I assume you are an DMV employee? Shit man, give 'em a break. They are just following fucked up rules. How about this? Fund the DMV so it could run smoothly? Maybe besides 15 employees have 20. Just a thought.


http://youtu.be/rsL6mKxtOlQ

[charlie55]

Yeah that's my plan. The one by me was seeming to be incredibly irrational. They said they recognized that PGO was the same thing as the MOTI, but said that since the MSO didn't say PGO, I couldn't register it. Which is ridiculous. I had everything else in order.

Hhhhmmmm.......

Algebraic law of equality:

If A = B, then B = A.

DMV law of equality:

If PGO = MOTI, then MOTI ≠ PGI.

If these jackasses weren't cooped up at the DMV, emergency services would be spending the better part of each day extricating them from phone booths and revolving doors. I guess someone has to be the employer of last resort.

I assume you are an DMV employee? Shit man, give 'em a break. They are just following fucked up rules. How about this? Fund the DMV so it could run smoothly? Maybe besides 15 employees have 20. Just a thought.


http://youtu.be/rsL6mKxtOlQ

If they were just following rules, perhaps I could cut them some slack, but not much respect. And it's not that it's a bad economy forcing people to take mindless jobs in order to survive. Even when times were good and the economy was booming, places like the DMV were Meccas for people who put whatever brains they had on a shelf for 8 hours, followed orders, and did just enough to get by. As frosting on the cake, service was/is usually provided with a smarmy, condescending attitude

But the fact that they don't even know the rules they're supposed to be following is the damning factor. Extrapolating on what others have stated, you can go to three different DMV offices with the same set of papers and get three different interpretations of the rules. Hell, sometimes you can just go to another window in the same office and get a completely different story. It's the inconsistency that's intolerable.

I must say that the NJ MVC has improved markedly ever since it was privatized and many of the transactions were made available online. In this day and age, there's no reason to have dozens of clerks shuffling papers and pounding their IBM Selectrics.

[Ninjasurfergirl]

HOLY. F**CKING. S**T. Just got back from another DMV and they wouldn't let me register it because the MSO didn't have the top speed on it so they didn't know what class to register it as. I said it's 30mph restricted to comply with state laws, its a Class B. They said, but your MSO doesn't say it on there.

I cannot imagine that Genuine looks at which state the scooter is being shipped to and writes out a different MSO based on the state. I am printing out all of the specs for the Buddy50, going to a different DMV, and if they don't let me register it, I'm selling it. I don't know what else to do, they'll never be happy. I'm so over this crap. I have 45 days from the time I purchase insurance to register it, I'm on day 30 because of this drama, I'm not sure what happens after day 45.

Has no one ever brought a scooter to NY from another state??? I see Buddys on the road all the damn time. The guy at the scooter place here has never heard of this BS. The MSO people at Genuine have never heard of this BS. I'm so pissed.

[charlie55]

HOLY. F**CKING. S**T. Just got back from another DMV and they wouldn't let me register it because the MSO didn't have the top speed on it so they didn't know what class to register it as. I said it's 30mph restricted to comply with state laws, its a Class B. They said, but your MSO doesn't say it on there.

I cannot imagine that Genuine looks at which state the scooter is being shipped to and writes out a different MSO based on the state. I am printing out all of the specs for the Buddy50, going to a different DMV, and if they don't let me register it, I'm selling it. I don't know what else to do, they'll never be happy. I'm so over this crap. I have 45 days from the time I purchase insurance to register it, I'm on day 30 because of this drama, I'm not sure what happens after day 45.

Has no one ever brought a scooter to NY from another state??? I see Buddys on the road all the damn time. The guy at the scooter place here has never heard of this BS. The MSO people at Genuine have never heard of this BS. I'm so pissed.

Does the MSO show the engine displacement or horsepower?

[Stilts]

Seriously, try contacting your local government representative (state legislature) for help.

[charlie55]

I just did some poking around, and the NY DMV site indicates that they do classify "low speed vehicles" by their top speed. That said, I don't know of any manufacturer that puts this info on their MSO/MCO.

Had another thought: Do you still have your Georgia plates, and, if so, do they have the "low speed vehicle" designation on them as illustrated in the following link?:

http://motor.etax.dor.ga.gov/motor/plat ... x?pcode=LS

Perhaps this, along with the specs from the Genuine website would convince them.

[Christophers]

The guy at the scooter place here has never heard of this BS. The MSO people at Genuine have never heard of this BS. I'm so pissed.

If the local scooter dealer has never had these problems, maybe he would be willing to buy the scooter from you and then sell it back to you, taking care of the title and registration in the process??

[pattio]

Oh man, OP that sucks. I've been down this silly road before in RI. The state had outdated language on the books from the seventies about motor-assisted-bicycles, and then there was a time of re-adjustment once the state learned that there were a lot of 49cc scooters on the road which did not have pedals and were going well over 30mph. So we went through several years of everybody being confused and the registry being dicks about stuff like having 'limited to 30mph' in print on the MSO. The brands we sold at the time (I think TGB, Malaguti) were willing and able to print 'limited to 30mph' on the MSO if needed. I also had to sign an affidavit as the selling dealer saying that the scooter was limited to 30mph at the time of sale.

Without having anything but sympathy to offer OP for this hassle, I will observe that in situations like this there is a lot to be said for the strategy of visiting a different person at a different window on a different day. Digging in never helps, so sometimes you just take whatever bullshit 'no' they give you, smile and walk away, and try again with a smile at a different branch.

[Neurotic-Hapi-Snak]

The guy at the scooter place here has never heard of this BS. The MSO people at Genuine have never heard of this BS. I'm so pissed.

If the local scooter dealer has never had these problems, maybe he would be willing to buy the scooter from you and then sell it back to you, taking care of the title and registration in the process??

But then she'd be out the NY sales tax. I guess that's better than an unrideable scoot, though.

[Ninjasurfergirl]

Yes the MSO has the engine displacement on it! And the scooter didn't have to be registered in GA so no plate or anything.

So I printed out the specs for the Buddy50 off the website and gave it one more shot, or I was legit going to sell the scoot and buy it back from the dealership. I go in armed with everything, and the DMV person accepted everything I had the first time I went in, no questions ask. Gave me the registration. Didn't give me crap about the MSO saying MOTI. Asked how fast the scooter went, when I said 30, she left it at that. I offered the printout with the specs, she didn't care. No problems.

So I just went for my first ride and it was awesome!! Missed it so much! I had ridden around the neighborhood a few times but getting out on the road was great

[charlie55]

I wouldn't recommend doing it, but I bet that if you printed something like this, in an official-looking font, on the original MSO:

"Certified as compliant with State of Georgia code 12337-075:S15.1(01/13) Class B requirements for low speed vehicles with maximum speeds not to exceed 30MPH/48.3KPH"

They'd swallow it without batting an eye.

I doubt that there's any standard MSO form that has a field for "Max MPH", so I'd bet the farm that manufacturers just add it on their own.

Probably not legal, but boy, what a kick in the head it would be if it worked!

[charlie55]

Aha, just saw your latest post.....

Congratulations on your victory over the troglodytes!

Was this with a different clerk, or one you had already dealt with?

[TVB]

If the local scooter dealer has never had these problems, maybe he would be willing to buy the scooter from you and then sell it back to you, taking care of the title and registration in the process??

The dealer would probably run into the same road block, because he'd need to get the state to issue him a NY title for it, just like anyone else buying it from a consumer would have to do. I believe dealers are only exempted from obtaining title on new-from-manufacturer vehicles.

[Ninjasurfergirl]

LOL I'll bet that would completely work!

It was a different clerk. I don't think I took a breath the whole time. I couldn't believe how easy it was when the other 3 gave me crap about irrelevant information.

[TVB]

So you finally managed to get a clerk who understands her role in the government: to keep good records, to keep people honest, and to keep the wheels spinning ... not to follow badly written rules to the letter.

[Ninjasurfergirl]

So you finally managed to get a clerk who understands her role in the government: to keep good records, to keep people honest, and to keep the wheels spinning ... not to follow badly written rules to the letter.

Pretty much! And I went in with the exact same paperwork the first clerk rejected. And she didn't bat an eye.

[libwitch]

Glad to hear you got it on the road, sorry to hear it was such a mess. GAH. But at least this thread can live on as "what to take in to register your bike when everything can possibly go wrong!"

Yes the MSO has the engine displacement on it! And the scooter didn't have to be registered in GA so no plate or anything.

So I printed out the specs for the Buddy50 off the website and gave it one more shot, or I was legit going to sell the scoot and buy it back from the dealership. I go in armed with everything, and the DMV person accepted everything I had the first time I went in, no questions ask. Gave me the registration. Didn't give me crap about the MSO saying MOTI. Asked how fast the scooter went, when I said 30, she left it at that. I offered the printout with the specs, she didn't care. No problems.

So I just went for my first ride and it was awesome!! Missed it so much! I had ridden around the neighborhood a few times but getting out on the road was great

[michelle_7728]

Congrats for persevering! What a crazy story!

[theflash784]

I worked in public service for over 30 years before I retired. I can tell you that the people are just like everyone else- some are knit pickers, some are more relaxed, some are more knowledgeable or experienced in one area more than others so yes- you will get different responses from different clerks. I had the same thing happen to me at the Mi Sec of State (which is our version of the DMV) when 1 clerk told the certificate of insurance I had was not proper. I went back to the Ins Co, they said it was good so I went to a different branch of the Sec of State and had no problem. There was many times I would grind my teeth at work because some of my co-workers spent more time arguing with citizens about taking a report because the citizen didn't have the one piece of information than it would have taken them to make the report and look up that information themselves.