Buddy is trying to get away!

[bhessler25]

I am in need of any/all suggestions asap! My 2007 (?) Buddy 125 has been acting up all spring- but i'm skipping to the current issue. The bike was not engaging to accelerate when i would be out riding and slow for turns etc. It was also stalling at idle. So i took it to the shop (that had last worked on it- they have a terrible reputation but since they had done the last work i thought they would fix it for free. All they really did was adjust the idle screw. So off i went, hesitant but it was ok. Then after just a couple short trips around town, it started lurching forward when i stopped at lights and when i got off before getting up on center stand. When on the center stand back wheel spins like mad.
So, i thought CLUTCH and a friend replaced it for me. We replaced the whole thing, assembled so didn't have to mess with that big nut that was a pain to get on if only replacing part of the clutch assembly. We also put the stock rollers weights back in. A year ago we went up to 11.5g (I think) and so we put the 11g back in. Interestingly- one of the 11.5s was stripped of the plastic and gouged up clearly having gotten wedged...
With the original weights back in and the whole clutch replaced, Piglet (my pink Buddy's name) was running fine last night. Even felt pretty zippy. Today, on a short ride to work (literally only a couple miles), it felt good until i pulled into the garage- and the clawing to get forward out from under me happened again. Up on center stand and rear wheel going nuts too!
What should i do next? The shop I can get to is obviously incompetent so I am calling around to other shops but in the mean time- any suggestions on here would be much appreciated.

[charlie55]

I am in need of any/all suggestions asap! My 2007 (?) Buddy 125 has been acting up all spring- but i'm skipping to the current issue. The bike was not engaging to accelerate when i would be out riding and slow for turns etc. It was also stalling at idle. So i took it to the shop (that had last worked on it- they have a terrible reputation but since they had done the last work i thought they would fix it for free. All they really did was adjust the idle screw. So off i went, hesitant but it was ok. Then after just a couple short trips around town, it started lurching forward when i stopped at lights and when i got off before getting up on center stand. When on the center stand back wheel spins like mad.
So, i thought CLUTCH and a friend replaced it for me. We replaced the whole thing, assembled so didn't have to mess with that big nut that was a pain to get on if only replacing part of the clutch assembly. We also put the stock rollers weights back in. A year ago we went up to 11.5g (I think) and so we put the 11g back in. Interestingly- one of the 11.5s was stripped of the plastic and gouged up clearly having gotten wedged...
With the original weights back in and the whole clutch replaced, Piglet (my pink Buddy's name) was running fine last night. Even felt pretty zippy. Today, on a short ride to work (literally only a couple miles), it felt good until i pulled into the garage- and the clawing to get forward out from under me happened again. Up on center stand and rear wheel going nuts too!
What should i do next? The shop I can get to is obviously incompetent so I am calling around to other shops but in the mean time- any suggestions on here would be much appreciated.

First of all, I'd adjust the idle back to the point where the rear wheel just barely spins when the scoot's up on the center stand. That way you'd would have a baseline to work from. Thereafter, if you continue getting this surging, the first thing I would look at is the cabling from the throttle to the carburetor. It may be sticking open (or at least partially open) due to dirt, wear, lack of lubrication, etc. Another indication of a problem with the cable or throttle would be engine speed varying with movement of the handlebars. Put it up on the center stand, start it and let it warm up. Then move the handlebars fully left then fully right a few times. If the engine speed varies as you do this, then there's some kind of binding going on.

[bhessler25]

I will try to mess with the idle when i get it back home from work. Do you think i am going to cause more damage to limp it home?
Thanks for that idea of the throttle cable. I didn't think that was the issue but went down and did the handlebar test anyway. Nothing. It's definitely not that.
So we have brand new clutch with perfect easy install, variator is good so must be the belt? Sounds like and feels like same symptoms as before and when we took it apart it was clear a roller had gotten free and jammed up.

So, i guess my question is, how could a roller sneak out of position? Belt too loose? Any way to test that before i go across town to buy a $45 belt (from the crappy shop i'd rather not support?)
Thanks

[charlie55]

I will try to mess with the idle when i get it back home from work. Do you think i am going to cause more damage to limp it home?
Thanks for that idea of the throttle cable. I didn't think that was the issue but went down and did the handlebar test anyway. Nothing. It's definitely not that.
So we have brand new clutch with perfect easy install, variator is good so must be the belt? Sounds like and feels like same symptoms as before and when we took it apart it was clear a roller had gotten free and jammed up.

So, i guess my question is, how could a roller sneak out of position? Belt too loose? Any way to test that before i go across town to buy a $45 belt (from the crappy shop i'd rather not support?)
Thanks

No, I doubt if you can do any damage.

In my experience, the only way that a roller gets out of line is if the variator assembly is not held closed during installation. In other words, the movable ramp plate was allowed to slide away from the face plate, allowing one or more of the rollers to dropout of positions.

OK, so we can now assume that the clutch is OK (i.e. grabbing and releasing the clutch bell normally) since it's new, and also that the throttle isn't binding - good.

For me, the next step would be to remove the variator/clutch cover and run the scoot on the center stand. Keep varying the throttle and observe the position of the belt on the variator and clutch. At low speed, the belt should be riding near inner part of the variator and the outer part of the clutch. As speed increases, the belt should move towards the outer circumference of the variator and inner part of the clutch. If you find that the belt is not returning to its low speed position after running at high speed, then that's your problem: either the variator or the clutch sheave is binding and not allowing the belt to move throughout the maximum range.

The following video will show you what normal belt movement should look like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TnkUIecRE4

I doubt that you have a faulty belt, but take a look at the variator face plates and clutch sheave to see if there are heavy black rubber deposits on them. Rubbed-off belt material deposited on these parts can interfere with belt travel.

[snoozy]

Something like that happened to me with my van. The engine would race and as long as I could go along, it was worrisome but not lethal, but then when I would stop for a stoplight, it was all I could do to keep the brake on and not go plowing through the intersection. When I shifted it into neutral, the rpms would go skyhigh. Made it home alive, and took it to the mechanic -- a mechanic who had never seen one of these old vans and didn't even know the engine was under the driver's seat. (The van is older than he is!) Anyway, he poked around and it turned out that a rodent had gotten into the airfilter and built a nest, and part of this nest got sucked up into a hose which then wouldn't allow the throttle cable to release. It behaved as if I was flooring it.

I have no idea if this adventure is relevant at all to a scooter, but the throttle handle is only one end of the throttle mechanism, so check the other end to make sure that whatever valve is controlled by the throttle is behaving normally (opening and closing fully).

[Syd]

I had similar symptoms as yours on a scoot I once had. It would not keep an idle, but turn up the idle and when running (hint: warmed up) I had to grab the brakes to keep it from rolling away at stop lights.

Turns out the choke/autobystarter/thingy was bad. It was replaced, the idle was adjusted and it ran perfectly until I sold it.

[kev187]

Hello All, I am the mechanic who worked on this bike.

So last year we upgraded her to a Polini Variator, new rollers, new contra spring. Now a full season later. Some way some how a roller got sideways and wiped itself out. So I replaced all the rollers with the OEM rollers (proper size for the polini) and I am quite experienced with primary drives on scoots. So before torquing down the bolts, the tension was taken off the belt by compressing the rear pulley and getting the belt out of the way prior to tourqing down the variator nut .

Now a day later some how a roller seems to have lodged itself sideways again kicking the bike back in high gear of sorts because the variator gets stuck. Why after a year is this happenning? My only guess is maybe a worn out thin or stretched belt is letting g the variator open up too much?

I am at a loss. 7 years of working on various twist and go scooters (lots of experience) never seen a roller turn sideways.

[charlie55]

Hello All, I am the mechanic who worked on this bike.

So last year we upgraded her to a Polini Variator, new rollers, new contra spring. Now a full season later. Some way some how a roller got sideways and wiped itself out. So I replaced all the rollers with the OEM rollers (proper size for the polini) and I am quite experienced with primary drives on scoots. So before torquing down the bolts, the tension was taken off the belt by compressing the rear pulley and getting the belt out of the way prior to tourqing down the variator nut .

Now a day later some how a roller seems to have lodged itself sideways again kicking the bike back in high gear of sorts because the variator gets stuck. Why after a year is this happenning? My only guess is maybe a worn out thin or stretched belt is letting g the variator open up too much?

I am at a loss. 7 years of working on various twist and go scooters (lots of experience) never seen a roller turn sideways.

Just a thought.....

Is there anything about the Polini that would make it incompatible with a stock Buddy belt? You know: face angle, required belt width, stuff like that?

[kev187]

Hello All, I am the mechanic who worked on this bike.

So last year we upgraded her to a Polini Variator, new rollers, new contra spring. Now a full season later. Some way some how a roller got sideways and wiped itself out. So I replaced all the rollers with the OEM rollers (proper size for the polini) and I am quite experienced with primary drives on scoots. So before torquing down the bolts, the tension was taken off the belt by compressing the rear pulley and getting the belt out of the way prior to tourqing down the variator nut .

Now a day later some how a roller seems to have lodged itself sideways again kicking the bike back in high gear of sorts because the variator gets stuck. Why after a year is this happenning? My only guess is maybe a worn out thin or stretched belt is letting g the variator open up too much?

I am at a loss. 7 years of working on various twist and go scooters (lots of experience) never seen a roller turn sideways.

Just a thought.....

Is there anything about the Polini that would make it incompatible with a stock Buddy belt? You know: face angle, required belt width, stuff like that?

[kev187]

No belts are belts. The angles of the variator and rollers change bike to bike, but its only the length and width that matter. I do not suspect this is an issue. Especially after a years worth of riding and hard riding at that, that belt was fine and by now broken in to the new angles. Again I have done similar mods on a lot of bikes. 20 years riding experience and mechanical experience.

[jrstone]

Hello All, I am the mechanic who worked on this bike.

So last year we upgraded her to a Polini Variator, new rollers, new contra spring. Now a full season later. Some way some how a roller got sideways and wiped itself out. So I replaced all the rollers with the OEM rollers (proper size for the polini) and I am quite experienced with primary drives on scoots. So before torquing down the bolts, the tension was taken off the belt by compressing the rear pulley and getting the belt out of the way prior to tourqing down the variator nut .

Now a day later some how a roller seems to have lodged itself sideways again kicking the bike back in high gear of sorts because the variator gets stuck. Why after a year is this happenning? My only guess is maybe a worn out thin or stretched belt is letting g the variator open up too much?

I am at a loss. 7 years of working on various twist and go scooters (lots of experience) never seen a roller turn sideways.

Could it be that there was a washer left out when the variator was replaced and that is allowing too much movement?

[ericalm]

Only one roller turning sideways each time? Any unusual wear to the roller, ramps or back plate?

When you open the transmission is everything still in place? Variator nut in same place as when torqued down?

I had a friend with a mystery transmission issue recently and it turned out his torque wrench (mechanical click type) was WAY off and his variator nut was spinning off.

Someone mentioned washers. Their are spacers for the Pollinis that are not on the stock variators. I haven't installed one on a Buddy so don't know if it uses them; it varies by model.

[ericalm]

I will try to mess with the idle when i get it back home from work.

If it's any help, adjustment tutorial:
topic4153.html

[kev187]

Nope no washers left out. 100% certain on that one. Remember its been fine for a year, this was sudden.

IMPACT wrench is fine. The bolts were properly torqued down with locktite red, total pain to impact off. When this happened the 1st time... All the bolts were still properly torqued.

So no one thinks a worn out belt can cause this????

[charlie55]

Nope no washers left out. 100% certain on that one. Remember its been fine for a year, this was sudden.

IMPACT wrench is fine. The bolts were properly torqued down with locktite red, total pain to impact off. When this happened the 1st time... All the bolts were still properly torqued.

So no one thinks a worn out belt can cause this????

I can "imagine" two scenarios:

The belt is so stretched out that it's flying way too high on the variator and allowing enough slop to let the ramp plate separate too far from its face plate.

The belt has gotten so narrow as to allow the same thing.

That said, neither situation seems that realistic. I've been scouring the web, and while there are plenty of cases of rollers "getting sideways" on a ramp, they are all explained by improper installation and we've already ruled that out since you've done these mods many times before. The only cases I could find of rollers jamming have been when they were either too small (dimensions, not weight) or the internal separations between the ramps had broken. Again, not applicable to what you're seeing, and for the same reason.

I guess the only way to know for sure would be to put in new rollers, leave the old belt on and watch the belt/pulley movement with the cover off. Can't think of anything else in the way of diagnosis.

Just out of curiousity, how many miles were put on that belt in the course of the year, and can you compare its dimensions to that of a new one?

[bhessler25]

Again thanks for the ideas of what to test. I did run it with case off and belt moves ok, like in the video- BUT when the case came off, it was clear that now we have a possibly new problem- caused by who knows what that was the initial problem. The brand new clutch's inner plate is shattered to bits and falling out. This was after just 4 miles of riding on the new clutch. I didn't have access to an impact wrench this morning to get the variator (or clutch for that matter) off to see if the rollers were all still there and intact. But poking around with my fingers, i think so...

Any more guesses of what the heck could be going on?

Trying not to get too upset over this since I have a Kawasaki Versys I can take up to a scooter rally in Harrisburg this weekend. But still, it just isn't the same.

[charlie55]

Again thanks for the ideas of what to test. I did run it with case off and belt moves ok, like in the video- BUT when the case came off, it was clear that now we have a possibly new problem- caused by who knows what that was the initial problem. The brand new clutch's inner plate is shattered to bits and falling out. This was after just 4 miles of riding on the new clutch. I didn't have access to an impact wrench this morning to get the variator (or clutch for that matter) off to see if the rollers were all still there and intact. But poking around with my fingers, i think so...

Any more guesses of what the heck could be going on?

Trying not to get too upset over this since I have a Kawasaki Versys I can take up to a scooter rally in Harrisburg this weekend. But still, it just isn't the same.

Wow! What exactly do you mean by "inner plate" - the assembly to which the clutch shoes are attached/pivoted, or one of the pulley plates?

Also, does the clutch bell show any signs of overheating. Specifially a bluish discoloration.

Again, wow!

[ericalm]

When you say the roller was sideways, do you mean rotated 90° but still seated on the ramp?

Does the belt show never wear? Are there marks on the inside of the transmission case from the belt rubbing against it?

I don't think the belt is the culprit here. It's easily replaced, though.

I'd pull it all off and look for damage on the drive shaft and variator bushing. Check the teeth of the Polini back plate and the splines of the shaft.

I have some spare variators I might play with to figure out how this could happen. Where do the pieces have to be to even allow a roller to go sideways?

[bhessler25]

No signs of heat. See the pic attached. I tried to point to the part that is now gone/chewed up. Maybe plate was not the right word. Sorry for confusion.

[JettaKnight]

So off i went, hesitant but it was ok. Then after just a couple short trips around town, it started lurching forward when i stopped at lights and when i got off before getting up on center stand. When on the center stand back wheel spins like mad.

Please tell me you're not dismounting your scooter while the engine is running.

[bhessler25]

no no- I just meant with feet on ground straddling bike, holding bars and lifting my weight off it. Had i stepped through and really dismounted- bike would have taken off without me!