NEWBIE: 2stroke vs. 4stroke? Top Speed?

vnice · Post by **vnice** » Wed May 21, 2008 10:52 pm

So, I am grappling with a choice: Buddy 50, Kymco People 50, or a Yamaha C3.

Now, please spare me anything about the looks of each scoot. I like all of them for different reasons. Buddy and C3 have great storage. All have received fantastic reviews all over the place.

But, I think my biggest question may be...should I have a 2 stroke or a 4 stroke engine, which is what this boils down to.

ALSO>>>

Can anyone tell me how fast they can get their 50cc Buddy's. I know I can C3 up to about 35-40 miles per hour, without any derestriction. And 30 is fine, but going 35 or a little more would be perfect.

Finally, the C3 has fat tires which really smooth out and stabilize the ride. Same deal with the People 50's 16 inch wheels. How do the Buddy's handle?

So, help me out people...

vnice · Post by **vnice** » Wed May 21, 2008 11:06 pm

I edited to Include the Kymco People 50. I forgot it when I was originally posting.

BGK · Post by **BGK** » Thu May 22, 2008 1:24 am

Have you test ridden the C3 and 1) confirmed that it's top speed and 2) experienced how long it took to get there?

Don't believe hearsay and specs (and especially not your average salesperson). I like the scooter and Yamahas are great for quality and support, but I don't believe they are that fast.

The People 50 rocks. I've owned one. Top all around 50cc commuter scooter in the US. But it cost signifcantly more than a buddy 50.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Thu May 22, 2008 1:43 am

Actually larger and fatter tires have less handling and maneuverability than thin small tires. The buddy is one of the best bikes for it. 50cc buddy will go 30mph top, 45mph de restricted.

vnice · Post by **vnice** » Thu May 22, 2008 4:24 am

Is it difficult to derestrict the Buddy?

Also, no one has said anything about 4 stroke vs. 2 stroke.

As for test riding, I plan to test ride all models. I do know a guy personally who has a C3, and he gets it up to about 38 regularly.

Buddy_wannabe · Post by **Buddy_wannabe** » Thu May 22, 2008 4:45 am

I thought ALL restricted 50 scoots topped out at 30 ... isnt that the idea??

I got my Bud de-restricting thrown in for free (would have been $40 - $50 ).... guess its pretty easy

From what I hear the 2 stroker has more balls.

I also looked at the C3 ... it does look kind of cool ... The C3 is liquid cooled isnt it? .... how does that work out ? ... better then air cooled? ... any problem issues?

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Thu May 22, 2008 5:04 am

vnice wrote:...no one has said anything about 4 stroke vs. 2 stroke.

Nobody wants to comment on that issue because last time that topic came up here it led to one of our unhappiest threads ever. Suffice to say that neither motor is going to make boatloads of power, therefore many folks think that the decision factor comes down to which is cheaper to hotrod. It's generally pretty easy to hotrod a 2-stroke because all you have to do is bolt a cylinder kit on it. A competent mechanic can do it in their sleep. Scooterwest sells a cylinder kit for the Peep 50 that costs $219 and raises the displacement to 70 ccs. They also sell a similar kit for the Buddy 50 which I see is currently on sale for $179.

It's generally much more expensive to get that large a performance gain from a 4-stroke so, from that perspective, the 2-stroke remains the easy choice.

The big-wheel vs small wheel debate seems to boil down to three things:
-Seat Height: Peep taller, Buddy shorter
-Underseat Storage: Buddy much better, Peep not good
-Personal Preference: The Buddy looks more like a traditional scooter, the Peep like a modern motorbike

You won't go far wrong with either.

P.S. I have absolutely no experience with the C3 so, no comment there. It may be great, I just don't know.

vnice · Post by **vnice** » Thu May 22, 2008 5:11 am

Interesting.

A lady who runs a little scoot shop nearby is always saying 2 stroke is better simply because it has less moving parts.

Ok, let's not talk about what's better...let's talk about what people personally PREFER.

Do you PREFER 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Why?

Buddy_wannabe · Post by **Buddy_wannabe** » Thu May 22, 2008 5:13 am

the one thing that I reeeeaaalllly like on the Bud is the front storage /tray... I use it most every day. It might not seem like that big of a deal but I have had a number of scoot riders say they wished that their scoot had that.

jeq · Post by **jeq** » Thu May 22, 2008 5:38 am

Buddy_wannabe wrote:the one thing that I reeeeaaalllly like on the Bud is the front storage /tray... I use it most every day. It might not seem like that big of a deal but I have had a number of scoot riders say they wished that their scoot had that.

I used to do all my own auto maintenance, including tearing down the
engine in my MGB, overhauling electrical systems, just about anything
except transmissions. That said, I find it hilarious that the big decision
makers for me on the Buddy were they storage tray, underseat
capacity, and the color... What kind of scooter do you want?
A green one.

I love the Cushman-esque look of the C3. Saw one at work
today, cobalt blue, and it looked incredible. If they were available
in a 125 or 150, I'd have gone that route. They sit lower than the Buddy,
but I'm guessing have much more underseat storage.

All other things being equal, a 2-stroke should theoretically produce
more power than a 4-stroke of the same displacement, because you
get twice as many power cycles in a 2-stroke running at the same
shaft speed as the 4-stroke. But combustion in 2-strokes tends to be
less efficient, and you must either mix gas and oil, or replenish engine
oil (the Buddy 50, for example, has an oil injector) because 2-strokes
as a rule tend to require oil mixed in with the fuel/air mix to lubricate
the engine. And if you are getting the scooter to go green, chances
are the 2-stroke has higher emissions for the same amount of fuel
burned, due to the oil burning and less efficient combustion.
Still, for a high power-to-weight ration, they kick.

I've put about 100 miles on my Buddy 150; it handles well, better
than my previous bike (a '71 Honda CB450). All my concerns about
small wheels have pretty much gone away, except that with the
winter Chicago had this year, I have to be extremely careful
about potholes.

As you will see elsewhere in the forums, if you are new to
scooters or motorcycles, and even if you are riding in a state
where licensing is not required for a 50cc scooter, I strongly
urge you to get into a Motorcycle Safety Foundation RiderCourse.
(See http://www.msf-usa.org/ )

The course is free in most states, they provide 250cc bikes to
learn on, and the defensive and handling techniques they teach
may save your life. Completing the course (and/or getting
licensed) may also reduce your insurance premium.

If you pick any of the three scoots you listed, you will not have
made a bad choice. I have heard good first-hand reports
on the Yamaha Vino, as well, which is another Vespoid.

Good luck!

-jonathan

ScootLemont · Post by **ScootLemont** » Thu May 22, 2008 4:19 pm

My Rattler 50 will do an (indicated) 50MPG
I love the 2 stroke!

BGK · Post by **BGK** » Thu May 22, 2008 6:33 pm

vnice wrote:Interesting.

A lady who runs a little scoot shop nearby is always saying 2 stroke is better simply because it has less moving parts.

Ok, let's not talk about what's better...let's talk about what people personally PREFER.

Do you PREFER 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Why?

You get more power from a two stroke, all things being equal. They are a more simple machine. Few moving parts, fewer things to go wrong. But they do pay a price for the extra power. The simplicity has always been the attraction for me.

MikieTaps · Post by **MikieTaps** » Thu May 22, 2008 7:36 pm

ScootLemont wrote:My Rattler 50 will do an (indicated) 50MPG
I love the 2 stroke!

MPG or MPH?

ScootLemont · Post by **ScootLemont** » Thu May 22, 2008 8:03 pm

Whoops
Sorry about that... Damn auto type on my blackberry

I meant mph

I am not qualified to have an opinion on two verses 4 stroke as I only own a 2 stroke.

A smart guy once told me that eneryone is entitled to an opinion, but not everyone is qualified to have one.

vnice · Post by **vnice** » Fri May 23, 2008 2:14 am

The C3's rather insane gas milage is quite an attraction, although I am wary of electronic fuel injection. Electronic anything gives me the heebie geebies anymore. Hopefully, the electronic element won't go sour anytime soon. Now, I've seen reviews of C3's after a lot of miles and everyone who owns one is way into them, although they are obviously a bit slow. But, speed was never my thing. I am more into a comfy cruise to work and back. Derestricting would bump me up to 38-45 mph, depending on how I break it in, and that's plenty fast for me.

BGK · Post by **BGK** » Fri May 23, 2008 4:35 am

I seriously doubt that speed rating. They easily get inflated. Have you verified this with a test ride? People often inflate how fast a scoot is. I'd bet more like 35-38 tops on a flat road with no wind being riden by a very light rider in a full tuck. But in normal traffic and road conditions it's doubtful. Notice how your estimate jumped from 35-40 to 38-45?

vnice · Post by **vnice** » Fri May 23, 2008 4:42 am

Actually, the "inflation" is between restricted and derestricted, if you read my post.

The guy I know with the C3 used a gps and few other means to measure his top speed before and after derestriction. He actually checks it every few weeks, as he is writing an article about the C3. Unfortunately, he lives 1000 miles away, so I can't ride his.

BGK · Post by **BGK** » Fri May 23, 2008 6:46 pm

Still don't buy it. But good luck. I'll sincerely be pleasantly surprised when I get a chance to test one out and find that remarkable performance.

jeq · Post by **jeq** » Sat May 24, 2008 2:48 am

Just by accident...

It was a bit too cold to ride today, with rain predicted, so I had the car. On the way home, I came upon a guy on a C3, on a 4-lane divided highway (Route 14, between Barrington and Cary, Illinois, for anyone who cares).

Assuming the speedo in my Aveo is accurate, or at least more accurate than a typical scooter speedo, I made the following observations:

The rider appeared to be average-sized - I'd estimate between 175 and 185 pounds, 5-foot 10 or 11. The C3 had a mid-length windshield.

When I first passed him (and unfortunately, I was nearly past before it dawned on me to time him), we were on level road, possibly a very slight uphill grade. I estimate he was doing 40 to 42mph, according to my Aveo. As we approached the next light, I arranged to stop first in line, directly in front of him. We started up a moderate uphill grade. I was driving a manual; I noticed as I shifted from 1st to 2nd, he braked a bit, so he had enough pickup that my gearshift caught him off guard. I accelerated very gradually after that, and I don't think he got above 35 on the uphill section. He had open road in front, and a line of cars piled up behind, so I'd guess he had it wide open. He wasn't riding squirrelly - it didn't look like he was afraid of speed - so I believe he was at the limits of the bike.

No way to know, of course, if the limiter had been completely disabled.

Based on the roads I normally ride, then, I don't think a 50 would cut it. Your driving conditions probably are different.

I did discover that the C3 at work is owned by one of my coworkers. His commute is in the opposite direction from mine, and he made a comment about route selection that leads me to believe he stays off the busy roads. But he also had no prior motorcycle or scooter experience.

That's my contribution to the depth of human knowledge for this week...

jeq

BGK · Post by **BGK** » Sat May 24, 2008 3:29 am

I'm very interested in testing one out now. Steve Guzman from the scooterscoop revied one and said he topped out at 35 mph and suggest the only way it would reach 40 would be down hill. Typical 4 stroke 50cc air cooled, normally aspirated scoots do between 28 and 32 mph. I could see adding LC and FI getting the performance up there, but I'd still think a legit 40 would be a stretch for all but the lightest riders. But I'm interested none the less. I need to learn!

vnice · Post by **vnice** » Sat May 24, 2008 6:28 pm

Well, my initial restricted speed estimates are also based on the review on www.justgottascoot.com, which it seems like a lot of poeple on the internet seem to reference for a good source of bike reviews. He even compares the bikes he reviews to other bikes as frames of reference. For the record, his review of the Buddy 125 is glowing, to say the least. He loves that thing, and bought it immediately.

BGK · Post by **BGK** » Sat May 24, 2008 7:13 pm

vnice wrote:Well, my initial restricted speed estimates are also based on the review on www.justgottascoot.com, which it seems like a lot of poeple on the internet seem to reference for a good source of bike reviews. He even compares the bikes he reviews to other bikes as frames of reference. For the record, his review of the Buddy 125 is glowing, to say the least. He loves that thing, and bought it immediately.

I know Dave fairly well and trust his reviews. But he states 40 mph, with 5% optimistic speedo and Bev is fairly light. I don't think there is more to come from derestriction. Restricted scoots stop at about 30 mph. If it goes over that, it's not restricted. The purpose of restriction is to qualify for some regional requirements for licensing. Restricting to 38 mph would serve no purpose. So, that's all it's got. the difference between 38 mph (top speed indicated with a light weight rider and adjusted for speedomoter optimism) and 45 mph is pretty big on top of the modest 4 stroke acceleration.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Sun May 25, 2008 1:21 am

I can't help but notice that every discussion about 50cc scoots is soon about whether they have enough power and speed to ride where you want to take them. If you are even asking yourself that question, the answer is that they don't. Find yourself a good used 125/150 Buddy, Vino, Kymco, etc if new is outside of your price range. You'll be glad you did.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Sun May 25, 2008 1:27 am

Mods to make the 50cc lower the gas mileage, plus the parts tend to wear faster, you can get a 70cc kit that will last for a while then die on you. The best is to keep a bike stock and ride it the way it came, 50cc can only go so fast

bryantbuddy · Post by **bryantbuddy** » Sun May 25, 2008 1:30 am

Check out SYM. Their Mio is cute, gets over 100mpg (up to 140 the ads say) and has good performance. I have not ridden one but a friend of mine has and says they are much better than the buddy????

vnice · Post by **vnice** » Mon May 26, 2008 6:47 pm

I don't know why I didn't look at Sym more closely. Truth is, I never liked the look of any of their scooters. I didn't think they had anything retro/euro styled at all.

Anyway, 50cc concerns are always a factor, simply because people can avoid expenses like registration and insurance, etc., depending on the state. Here in Nevada, I don't have to register or insure, and on my tight budget and the crumbling economy, that actually means a lot. I am only using my scoot to get to and from work and the occassional pleasure cruise in the park. 30 mph is actually fine for me...what concerns me is scoots that top out at LESS than 30 mph.

ScootLemont · Post by **ScootLemont** » Mon May 26, 2008 9:38 pm

Dooglas wrote:I can't help but notice that every discussion about 50cc scoots is soon about whether they have enough power and speed to ride where you want to take them. If you are even asking yourself that question, the answer is that they don't. Find yourself a good used 125/150 Buddy, Vino, Kymco, etc if new is outside of your price range. You'll be glad you did.

I pondered a 50 for 6 months before I bought one.
for where I want to take mine, the 2 stroke 50 is plenty. I hit 45MPH (gps confirmed) and bet I can get another 5mph out of it after the break in & I am not afraid to push it harder.

most of my riding is around town & under 35mph. My 2 stroke 50 is a great fit for ME. I think it comes down to having an accurate and realistic understanding of where you will be riding.
If you are riding above 40mph for miles every day, a 50 probably isnt for you... but if not, it is a good fit for a lot of people.

Modern Buddy

NEWBIE: 2stroke vs. 4stroke? Top Speed?

NEWBIE: 2stroke vs. 4stroke? Top Speed?

Re: NEWBIE: 2stroke vs. 4stroke? Top Speed?

Check out SYM