The Ethical vs. The Responsible Thing to do

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:20 pm

I was at a scooter shop on Saturday which sold mainland Chinese scoots. A lady was there purchasing a scooter. They were very glad to take her money. However, this lady didn't have a clue how to ride it. So they took out back where they "taught" her how to ride in 10 minutes.

Obviously, she wasn't properly licensed or had a permit.

So it was it ethically correct to put someone a machine to ride city streets without any clue or just take the money.

Ethically-Technically, yes they can take her money and send her on her way (which they did). She accepted the risk.

Was it a responsible thing to do? NO. Could they live with themselves if she landed deceased a few blocks from the shop?

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:37 pm

If she drove it off the lot, I believe they are liable. Not only would it be unethical, it could cost them big-time. Perhaps she only lived a block or two away? If so, perhaps they thought it was an acceptable risk.

Now if during the instruction period they told her she needed to get insurance and a permit, then proceeded to load it in her truck, that is fine.

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:07 pm

Would it have been ethical for me to punch the chick on the pink buddy that lane split (totally illegal in Chicago) and cut me off (on my Blur) this morning? Geez.

If you're on this list, Chicago Pink-Buddy Grand Avenue lanesplitter, way to go. People like me toiled in loserdom for years to make your scooter trendy and this is the thanks we get?

Bb.

DennisD · Post by **DennisD** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:14 pm

First question by my dealer. "Do you have a motorcycle endorsement?"

Dennis

Eddy Merckx · Post by **Eddy Merckx** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:16 pm

we all make decisions in our lives some not as good as others, ethics can not be applied to others alone and must be applied to ourselves as well.. if it was that bad and you did nothing is that ethical ?

EP_scoot · Post by **EP_scoot** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:27 pm

Tough question.

Dealers are in the business of selling and servicing bikes. That is it. It is up to the rider to get the skills needed to handle the vehicle.

That said, if the lady was seriously not knowing what to do, a dealer with a high level of ethics might have offered to deliver the bike home and provide with some information on MSF or local skills classes. I can't imagine any dealer not selling a bike and telling someone that you need to learn, then come and buy the bike. Chances are that person will just go to another dealer and buy another bike and bad mouth the original dealer all over the internet.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:33 pm

I think the dealer cant be too honest if they expect her to ride home on the real roads when she only had a 10 minute schooling in the parking lot. 10 minutes may teach you to ride straight and stop, but it wont teach you all the skills you need to ride safe.

I think if they cant put it into a truck and deliver, they should atleast ride it home for her.

sotied · Post by **sotied** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:45 pm

illnoise wrote:Would it have been ethical for me to punch the chick on the pink buddy that lane split (totally illegal in Chicago) and cut me off (on my Blur) this morning? Geez.

If you're on this list, Chicago Pink-Buddy Grand Avenue lanesplitter, way to go. People like me toiled in loserdom for years to make your scooter trendy and this is the thanks we get?

Bb.

That should be it's own post. I'd comment on it. And maybe you could get a discussion started on our image as scooterists.

Just my $.14.

Racenut · Post by **Racenut** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:11 pm

When I bought mine, the only reason I needed a motorcycle endorsement was to test drive. And then they wanted a full M1, not just the permit that I currently have. I was there to buy the Blur, period. Only reason they let me ride it at all was because he knew as long as I didn't hate it, he was gonna sell it.

But this is all just to cover their ass as long as they own the bike.

He made a point that there is no requirement for them to check licensing or anything if you're buying a motorcycle. One you own it they don't care what you do with it or how you ride it, it's yours.

jetboy · Post by **jetboy** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:41 pm

So was it a 50cc or something bigger? If it was a 50cc and your state doesn't require any additional licensure to ride it, it may not have been that big a deal. On the other hand, there would be a lot of scooter sales blown if buyers didn't have the ability to put the cart before the horse (so to speak). Buyers need to take personal responsibility and accept the risks that come with that ability.

I know I did.

-jetboy

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:52 pm

neither ethical or responsible, but not illegal

bunny · Post by **bunny** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:58 pm

Another reason I believe Moxie is Yoda. He let me try out a 50cc in the parking lot. And then told me to take the MSF class and get licensed before I buy one.

I think it's reprehensible for someone to sell a scooter and 'train' them to ride in ten minutes in the back. That's an accident waiting to happen.

anndelise · Post by **anndelise** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:02 pm

imo,
the dealer shouldn't have to carry all the responsibility
the woman's buying something, she also has the responsibility to learn about the product she's buying

with that said, I personally think that it would be a good idea if dealers carried the state's motorcycle guide book to hand to people who are buying their first scooter ever and obviously know nothing.
but even this would just be one of those added services "because we care about our customers and want them to keep coming back to us"

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:04 pm

The scooter was 150cc Retro styled scooter.

BTW, this dealership was NOT a Buddy dealer. They only sell ML Chinese bikes.

anndelise · Post by **anndelise** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:10 pm

pcbikedude wrote:The scooter was 150cc Retro styled scooter.

BTW, this dealership was NOT a Buddy dealer. They only sell ML Chinese bikes.

did she ride it off the lot to take it home?
or did she load it up into a truck/van/trailer to take it home?

if she rode it home, she's a fool, imo
to think that she could go from zero to safe in 10min flat wouldn't show good decision making ability for safe riding on the roads

but if they showed her how it generally works, and then loaded it up for her to take home on something so she could practice on her block after getting her permit, then what's the issue?

madtolive · Post by **madtolive** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:13 pm

i had already taken the msf when i went to pick up my scooter and i was still scared! so one of my boys at the shop rode it home for me.

have i ever mentioned that i super duper DUPER <3 urban moto?

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:16 pm

anndelise wrote: did she ride it off the lot to take it home?
or did she load it up into a truck/van/trailer to take it home?

if she rode it home, she's a fool, imo
to think that she could go from zero to safe in 10min flat wouldn't show good decision making ability for safe riding on the roads

but if they showed her how it generally works, and then loaded it up for her to take home on something so she could practice on her block after getting her permit, then what's the issue?

She (the fool) rode it home with less than 10 mins of instruction.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:21 pm

The only thing worse than a chinese scooter is the sleezy big talking con-man who sells them to poor un-scootereducated buyers

madtolive · Post by **madtolive** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:29 pm

jfrost2 wrote:The only thing worse than a chinese scooter is the sleezy big talking con-man who sells them to poor un-scootereducated buyers

anyone who's going to make this kind of investment is responsible for educating themselves. if they took any time at all to look into scooters, they'd know better than to get poor-quality machines. would you buy a laptop, plasma tv, or even a cell phone without poking around to see what the best quality for the buck is? i wouldn't. and i sure as hell wouldn't just mosey up to the first place i saw that sold scooters and let them convince me of anything. even IF i had money spilling out of my pockets.

anndelise · Post by **anndelise** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:31 pm

pcbikedude wrote:She (the fool) rode it home with less than 10 mins of instruction.

I hearby nickname her "Roadkill"
she'll likely take one or more people out with her.

that's one person that has little chance of being a return customer

fwiw, i bought my 50cc with absolutely no understanding of any of it. Just before loading it up into my van, the guy showed me how to start/stop it. But I still wasn't able to get on it until we brought it home. When I did ride it the next day, I was very wobbly, very unsure, and very glad I was only in front of my own home and my neighbors. Eventually I branched out to cover my street. And finally going around the block making right turns..and eventually left turns. Now I ride around my community, and venture off onto a 35mph curvey road. I'm so not ready to use a main road that has a lot of traffic on it.

When I switched to the 125cc, I'm pretty much having to start almost all over as it has a vastly different feel, weight, and power to it.

My insurance guy met me part way so I could sign the papers on the insurance for the scooter. He asked me why I hadn't ridden the scooter. I told him I wasn't ready for the main road (we had talked about it beore and he knew that it was this road that inspired me to switch to a higher cc), so I was surprised that he would even think I would ride it to meet him. All I could think was...you represent an insurance company...surely you want me to AVOID risking getting into an accident don't you??

This woman astounds me at her stupidity.

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:37 pm

actually the more I think about it, the more I realize you really cannot expect the seller to be responsible for someones stupidy or not even having a permit. I think it would be great if scooter sellers, private or shop, could at least provide some info for buyers about learning the ropes. I have already decided when we sell the 06 Buddy, I would want the person to have a permit when they pick it up, or I would probably drive it to their home.
When I have rented scooters on vacation, they really don't tell you much. They are only 50cc, but still as risky as a 125 if you dont know what you are doing.

jmazza · Post by **jmazza** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:09 pm

anndelise wrote:imo,
the dealer shouldn't have to carry all the responsibility
the woman's buying something, she also has the responsibility to learn about the product she's buying

Bingo.

If she said "oh I've never ridden before..." and they told her, "no problem it's just like riding a bike... give it a try," that's one thing. But if she wanted the test ride, maybe she did a little fibbing about her abilities.

I was glad my dealer let me test ride (about 20 yards up and down the back alley behind their shop) with only my permit. And even when they delivered it, they told me "ok I'm going to tell you everything as if you've never seen a scooter before," so it's possible that's what they were doing with this lady- giving her more info than she needed.

I don't like people just out to make a buck, especially when we're talking about sending someone out on something as potentially dangerous as a scooter, but in my opinion (and it's only my opinion), this is like some of the gear discussions- personal responsibility has to factor in above everything else. Making it someone else's fault for our stupidity is why we are such a litigious society. Yes, shame on the dealer if they had a clear sense she shouldn't be on the scoot and sent her off on it, but ultimately it's her responsibility to not be an idiot (if in fact she was being one).

MPA · Post by **MPA** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:29 pm

I started riding a scooter when I was 16 with no one telling how to ride. Granted, I got lucky I didn't know how because on my first ride it was wet and I locked up the rear tire coming to a stop sign. Had I used the front brake I'd probably have gone down hard. In fact I never used the front brake on that bike. Now I know better, and when I wanted to get a motorcycle I took MSF.

Alot of people have been riding on the street without MSF and with only 10 minutes of training - sometimes it works out, sometimes inexperience rears it's ugly head.

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:43 pm

Ahh... memories of my first ride on my Vespa. I hadn't been on a motorized 2-wheeled anything in many years and, in all honesty, hadn't really known how to ride anything I had been on before. So basically, I had no instruction, no anything. The last scooter I had ridden—once—was a vintage Vespa smallframe, maybe a 90cc.

Leaving the dealership, riding out into Ventura Blvd., I made a giant arc across three lanes. Looking over my shoulder, I saw my (then) anti-scooter wife in her car, giving me this horrified, "I knew you'd kill yourself!" look.

She went to get a haircut, and I went to a nearby residential area to practice. I quickly discovered how much I didn't know about riding.

I agree that it's not a dealer's responsibility to make sure riders are properly trained and experienced. If they decided not to sell a scooter to every unprepared rider who came in, well, they'd sell less than half of what they do now. Even the best dealerships usually only tell people the basics.

IMHO, the ethical boundary lies in misleading, falsifying or knowingly withholding information regarding training, safety, legal requirements, the scooter's specs and capabilities, and so on.

Having spent some time hanging around at local dealers, I have to say that the number of customers who come in properly prepared is tiny. Now, even worse.

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:56 pm

ericalm wrote:Ahh... memories of my first ride on my Vespa.

Yeah, that's for sure. Maaaan, I was stupid.

I guess my point is, when I get belligerent about safety gear, it's not me telling people I'm better than they are, it's me telling people that I made all the same mistakes they made, and I'm lucky to still be alive, and I'd really like them to make the right decisions without learning things the hard way.

The more you learn about safety and riding technique, the more there is to learn, and the more you realize how important it is. It's ironic that truly skilled and experienced riders are usually more likely to wear ATGATT, and the people that think they don't need it are usually the ones that probably need it more than anyone. That sounds like an inflammatory insult, but in my experience, it's a fact.

Piedmont · Post by **Piedmont** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:04 pm

ericalm wrote:Even the best dealerships usually only tell people the basics.

Bingo. IANAL but too much instruction would be a liability I would think. If they took them through a fairly comprehensive rundown and they wrecked, I would think that in our society they my have a shot of coming back and saying "But you didn't tell me X"

If they lied to her about endorsement requirements, they're unethical scum.
If she didn't ask, she's a twit and the dealer's in an ethical grey area.
We don't know the whole story, so there's no way to tell.

Johnny · Post by **Johnny** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:34 am

illnoise wrote:Would it have been ethical for me to punch the chick on the pink buddy that lane split (totally illegal in Chicago) and cut me off (on my Blur) this morning? Geez.

If you're on this list, Chicago Pink-Buddy Grand Avenue lanesplitter, way to go. People like me toiled in loserdom for years to make your scooter trendy and this is the thanks we get?

Bb.

Hey - my wife has a pink Buddy! (I promise, it wasn't her.)
I have not seen another pink one around Chicago yet.

gt1000 · Post by **gt1000** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:33 am

illnoise wrote:Would it have been ethical for me to punch the chick on the pink buddy that lane split (totally illegal in Chicago) and cut me off (on my Blur) this morning? Geez.

If you're on this list, Chicago Pink-Buddy Grand Avenue lanesplitter, way to go. People like me toiled in loserdom for years to make your scooter trendy and this is the thanks we get?

Bb.

This thread and especially this response really resonate. I've seen things recently that have changed the way I ride. If I see a scooter up in front of me and the rider is wearing shorts and flip flops, I take another route. I'm consciously avoiding riding near many other riders. When I come up on someone, whether on a bike or scoot, I size them up before attempting to ride anywhere near them. If I think they're unprepared, I flee.

Over the course of the past few weeks, I've been to a couple of my local dealers and have personally witnessed the new crop of scooter purchasers. From what I've seen, the dealers are doing everything they can to inform the potential riders but many of the new riders are ignorant.

My sincere hope is that ignorant riders get a good scare and decide to inform themselves. My fear is that much of the attraction of scooter ownership will vanish as inexperienced riders get badly hurt.

charltons · Post by **charltons** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:49 am

here in Fl it's going to be a moot point in a couple of weeks. You won't be able to buy a MC or scoot w/o a license, and you won't be able to get a license w/o the MSF course (at least that's what they told me at the DL office). IMO, I think it's probably a good idea.

pugbuddy · Post by **pugbuddy** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:50 am

So it was it ethically correct to put someone a machine to ride city streets without any clue...

That's basically what happened to me. I bought my scoot and the guy simply rolled it out back for me and let me go. I was expecting a breakdown of starting and stopping the thing at least but it didn't happen. I had no clue whatsoever on how to even operate the thing! It actually never occured to me to look up the details of how a scooter operates beforehand.

Fortunately, my sister had gone with me to buy it (she had bought hers about a month before) and she gave me a 2 minute crash-course on driving it. Also, we went back through the neighborhoods which was very wise. The first left turn onto a major street (a very short stretch of which I had to use to get home) almost had me kissing the far curb of a 4 laner! But I made it home and spent most of the next week riding in the neighborhoods and practicing at the parking lot of the local funeral home (egads!).

I got better and the MSF course, which I took about 2-3 months later, was a huge help as well!

jmazza · Post by **jmazza** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:57 am

charltons wrote:here in Fl it's going to be a moot point in a couple of weeks. You won't be able to buy a MC or scoot w/o a license, and you won't be able to get a license w/o the MSF course (at least that's what they told me at the DL office). IMO, I think it's probably a good idea.

I've heard about the MSF part but not about not buying w/o a license.

Commies!!

KRUSTYburger · Post by **KRUSTYburger** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:32 am

jmazza wrote:
charltons wrote:here in Fl it's going to be a moot point in a couple of weeks. You won't be able to buy a MC or scoot w/o a license, and you won't be able to get a license w/o the MSF course (at least that's what they told me at the DL office). IMO, I think it's probably a good idea.
I've heard about the MSF part but not about not buying w/o a license.

Commies!!

Whew! Good thing I got mine the old fashion way!

1. Walk into DMV, take a number.
2. Peruse Motorcycle Safety Handbook while in waiting room for an hour and a half.
3. Take written test.
4. Wait another 30 min. Scoot around some cones.
5. Get picture taken. Get new license. Go home.

sargelee71 · Post by **sargelee71** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:38 am

Illnoise, that sucks about being cut off! I can understand your annoyance. Either she was a noob, an idiot, entitled, or all of the above. Was she wearing a helmet (grey?)? I've seen a woman on a pink scooter a couple times, and both times (during the second sighting, I didn't realize it was the same person) she was oblivious to my horn greeting.

An in general, unfortunately, there's a distinction between what is ethical and what is legal. Yes, ethically, sending a person on a scoot, who has little to no experience, home on one is questionable. But I wonder if it's legal--it may be. In my experience, Ken, at Scooterworks, first suggested that I go read the rules of the road and get my learner's permit before purchasing, then he took me on a ride. When I came back with permit in hand a few days later, he took me on another ride and gave me a few pointers. THEN, he took me out back and made me get on and he PUSHED me (a la a parent teaching a child to ride a bike) on the scooter with engine off to check my balance. After getting a sense I was OK, he gave me loaner helmet, made me promise to go slowly and carefully, and sent me on my way.

jmazza · Post by **jmazza** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:45 am

KRUSTYburger wrote: Whew! Good thing I got mine the old fashion way!

1. Walk into DMV, take a number.
2. Peruse Motorcycle Safety Handbook while in waiting room for an hour and a half.
3. Take written test.
4. Wait another 30 min. Scoot around some cones.
5. Get picture taken. Get new license. Go home.

haha. that's awesome. You crack me up Krusty. I studied for three days for the written test and then waited six months to start practicing for the riding test. I was nervous for both, but only missed one on the written and got a perfect score on the riding test.

10gallonhat · Post by **10gallonhat** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:35 pm

pcbikedude wrote:I was at a scooter shop on Saturday which sold mainland Chinese scoots. A lady was there purchasing a scooter. They were very glad to take her money. However, this lady didn't have a clue how to ride it. So they took out back where they "taught" her how to ride in 10 minutes.

Obviously, she wasn't properly licensed or had a permit.

So it was it ethically correct to put someone a machine to ride city streets without any clue or just take the money.

Ethically-Technically, yes they can take her money and send her on her way (which they did). She accepted the risk.

Was it a responsible thing to do? NO. Could they live with themselves if she landed deceased a few blocks from the shop?

I can't help but point out this story is almost 99% assumptions and speculation and very hypocritical.

I can guarantee almost everyone of the first time gas-powered two wheeler owners on this forum were nervous when they picked up their buddies. Doesn't matter how prepared they were or if they took the MSF. How do you know that lady wasn't more prepared than anybody?

When I bought my scooter - I had never been on one before, I got a "10 minute lesson" from the guys at the scooter shop - how is it any different because it was a Genuine Dealer?

And if you read these forums - quite a few of the 'prepared' members have crashed fairly recently after purchasing their scooters - so how is this different then if that lady would have crashed?

Seems a bit strange that this got so much attention just because it was a different brand of scooter. Maybe it is a reputable dealer who actually can repair whatever brand of scooter they decided to sell.

Sorry for the rant... but your story sounds just like the experience most of the members here have had buying their Buddies.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:50 pm

KRUSTYburger wrote: Whew! Good thing I got mine the old fashion way!

1. Walk into DMV, take a number.
2. Peruse Motorcycle Safety Handbook while in waiting room for an hour and a half.
3. Take written test.
4. Wait another 30 min. Scoot around some cones.
5. Get picture taken. Get new license. Go home.

6. Crash the scoot
7. Wait til the gravel rash and the sprained wrist heal
8. Take the MSF course
9. Warn others to consider better skills training and gear
10. (Hopefully) Scoot happily ever after

(Hmmm, maybe FL has a good idea about reducing some of the intermediate steps)

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:52 pm

10gallonhat wrote: I can't help but point out this story is almost 99% assumptions and speculation and very hypocritical.

I can guarantee almost everyone of the first time gas-powered two wheeler owners on this forum were nervous when they picked up their buddies. Doesn't matter how prepared they were or if they took the MSF. How do you know that lady wasn't more prepared than anybody?

When I bought my scooter - I had never been on one before, I got a "10 minute lesson" from the guys at the scooter shop - how is it any different because it was a Genuine Dealer?

And if you read these forums - quite a few of the 'prepared' members have crashed fairly recently after purchasing their scooters - so how is this different then if that lady would have crashed?

Seems a bit strange that this got so much attention just because it was a different brand of scooter. Maybe it is a reputable dealer who actually can repair whatever brand of scooter they decided to sell.

Sorry for the rant... but your story sounds just like the experience most of the members here have had buying their Buddies.

No, not correct. My dealer, made sure I was educated and was properly licensed before I got on the scooter. Of course, I had experience riding off-road so riding a scooter was much easier.

Most dealerships will hand you the keys and say "here you go". The best dealerships want you to return in one piece to buy accessories.

This lady admitted out loud that she had never been on a scooter before but she was determined to ride it home.

10gallonhat · Post by **10gallonhat** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:02 pm

You mean to say your dealer wouldn't have sold you a scooter if you didn't take the MSF? I understand the need for a license if it is required, but it sounds like in your story the dealer did their best to help them learn before they left the lot...

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:49 pm

Not quite the MSF class. Where I bought mine, they made sure of two things: 1) at least had a permit or M1 license 2) could ride on 2 wheels.

They started me in a desserted alley way riding back and forth at least 6 times before they felt that I was ready. I told them I had rode off-road but they still had me convince them.

BTW, I took the MSF class any way.

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:26 pm

Johnny wrote:Hey - my wife has a pink Buddy! (I promise, it wasn't her.)

Ha, I'm pretty sure it wasn't. I didn't get a great look at her though.

Bb.

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:29 pm

charltons wrote:here in Fl it's going to be a moot point in a couple of weeks. You won't be able to buy a MC or scoot w/o a license, and you won't be able to get a license w/o the MSF course (at least that's what they told me at the DL office). IMO, I think it's probably a good idea.

Really? I think that's great. Scooter dealers and manufacturers would certainly disagree with me, and probably ABATE and the AMA are using my membership dues to fight it, but I'm ALL for that.

If you come across that official info on the web, please pass it along, I'd like to post about it on 2sb. I'll have a look at florida's SOS site.

Bryan

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:30 pm

sargelee71 wrote:Illnoise, that sucks about being cut off! I can understand your annoyance. Either she was a noob, an idiot, entitled, or all of the above.

I know you didn't just say "entitled," ha. Are you reading the Chicago list?

Bb.

Modern Buddy

The Ethical vs. The Responsible Thing to do

The Ethical vs. The Responsible Thing to do

Re: The Ethical vs. The Responsible Thing to do

Re: The Ethical vs. The Responsible Thing to do