Flawed Gas Tank Design on 08 Buddys

Corsair · Post by **Corsair** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:43 am

So it's pretty much accepted that the new tank design on the 08 Buddys has a significant design flaw. Has Genuine officially acknowledged this yet? Do they have any plans to address the problem?

PS
The Buddy still rocks

Glen G · Post by **Glen G** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:20 am

Well, after all the hype here... My dealer did the logical thing. they called Genuine. Now, don't quote me on this.. but my dealer said Genuine is aware of the problem. No official fix or bulletin yet. It may be related from going from plastic to metal tank and new vapor release hose. I believe a lot of this stuff is required and not something Genuine may have wanted to do.

In any case, my dealer, based on a SUGGESTION from Genuine, put on a vented cap from a 50cc buddy today. It seems to have fixed the problem. However, I do live in Arizona so I also need to not fill the tank too much, it's been over 110 last 2 weeks.

Thanks my story, and I'm sticking to it

....Dealers are there for a reason and mine has gone above and beyond. G

Corsair · Post by **Corsair** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:26 am

honestly, wouldn't just sending out new (better) replacement gas caps to registered 08 owners fix the problem?

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:31 am

Please carefully read the other threads on this because there are some very good explanations (in particular, POC Phil's) of the problem and plenty of discussion of it.

The problem is a type of vapor lock, but it's not isolated to the Genuines. The issue is with the vapor recovery system in the '08 models and seems to be fixed by drilling a small hole in the cap or installing a vented cap. Also, do not overfill the tank. Follow the manual's instructions. I know we all want to fill it to the brim—don't.

Meanwhile, Genuine is aware of the problem. We have a couple reports that they're sending new gas caps to deal with this. There may be some other fixes in the works.

The first thing you should do is talk to your dealer about it. They're the ones who are in direct contact with Genuine. And I'll see if I can find anything out tomorrow.

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:32 am

Corsair wrote:honestly, wouldn't just sending out new (better) replacement gas caps to registered 08 owners fix the problem?

Mmmmmaaaayyybe. That may be exactly what they're doing.

Rockledge Buddy · Post by **Rockledge Buddy** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:14 am

I had a problem with my relatively new Pamplona 150 (600 miles) and the dealer did indeed inform me that Genuine was sending out new gas caps. I called them yesterday and they informed me that my scooter was good to go but they are going to deliver it back to me (dealer is 55 miles away). Probably will not get it back until Saturday evening though.

Corsair · Post by **Corsair** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:52 pm

Sounds like Genuine is indeed a good company (wait, will they be free to 08 owners?)

bfreed · Post by **bfreed** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:42 pm

illnoise also had a helpful post on this. I hesitate to post, moving the topic to the top again. But if it's going to be at the top today anyway...

calling replacement caps "new" or "better" is a gray area.
old cap design = vented
2008 cap design = airtight, per EPA to "reduce smog"
airtight cap>>"vapor recovery tube">>overfill tank>>vapor lock.

The "new" caps will "fix" the "problem", in that (as I understand it) they bypass the EPA-mandated system by adding in traditional venting. (just like an "old" cap)

(off topic: any Office Space fans remember when they "fixed" the "glitch" instead of firing Milton?)

And as I understand it, the "new" caps will prevent vapor lock, but since you're not removing the vent hose, overfilling the tank will likely still result in small amounts of fuel dripping through the recovery system and onto the tailpipe eventually. (yet another "design flaw" discussed ad nauseum elsewhere)

Conveniently, there is another FREE solution that will, once and for all, solve BOTH "problems."

DON'T FILL YOUR GAS TANK TO THE BRIM. The vapor recovery hose is right at the top of the tank. Keep the gas away from the top of the tank, and everything is golden. And you can feel warm and fuzzy about not leaking gasoline fumes into the air, if that's your sort of thing.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:23 pm

Rumors are genuine is making all dealers drill a hole into the cap to let out extra pressure, or another rumor is genuine is making their own gas caps which they just replace with the stock ones. Not sure which is right, but drilling my own gas cap took 5 minutes and works fine.

BillN · Post by **BillN** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:43 pm

I picked up my '08 125 from Urban Moto in Austin last week, and was told by the guys there that Genuine was shipping replacement gas caps. No idea when, but he did say they were coming.

MFrost · Post by **MFrost** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:25 pm

I just called Genuine & spoke with a customer servive person named Cindy and she confirmed that there was a known gas cap problem . However, she said that Genuine WAS NOT going to replace the caps, but we could always buy a new vented cap.
Mike

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:00 pm

MFrost wrote:I just called Genuine & spoke with a customer servive person named Cindy and she confirmed that there was a known gas cap problem . However, she said that Genuine WAS NOT going to replace the caps, but we could always buy a new vented cap.
Mike

That's incorrect.

I just spoke with Phil McCaleb (owner of Genuine) about this. The issue is solely with the gas caps, not the tanks themselves. Genuine is sending out replacement gas caps to all dealers. They are also sending stickers warning riders not to overfill the tanks.

So there you are—the official word!

Christy · Post by **Christy** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:17 pm

am i one of the lucky ones to not have had this problem yet?? i have no idea what you guys are talking about......

chancerbeans13 · Post by **chancerbeans13** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:21 pm

Me either, I know what they are talking about, but have not experienced this phenomenon known as (finger quotes) Vapor Lock (finger quotes). Wow, did I feel like Dr. Evil just know.....LOL

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:51 pm

It could be that you guys haven't had the right conditions to cause the problem. It's not a 100% thing...

SScooterG · Post by **SScooterG** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:54 pm

Yeah...but...no one's actually stated the symptoms...I overfilled my tank earlier...am I going to die??

What seems to be the problem here? Is it just...the air smells like gas or what? WTF is vapor lock?

What's going on??

docutech · Post by **docutech** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:00 pm

With almost 600 miles under my arse, I have yet to experience this VL on my buddy as well. I guess that is a good thing

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:09 pm

SScooterG wrote:Yeah...but...no one's actually stated the symptoms...I overfilled my tank earlier...am I going to die??

What seems to be the problem here? Is it just...the air smells like gas or what? WTF is vapor lock?

What's going on??

The symptom is sudden stalling. The Buddy 150s have a new metal tank and a vapor recovery system. When overfilled, expanding gas vapors in the tank force liquid into the recovery system and basically results in clogging at the carb. This is a little different than what's usually referred to as vapor lock.

It's explained better here:
topic4707.html

vespatech · Post by **vespatech** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:43 pm

think of a vacuum pulling on both sides of a tube with the same pressure, neither will get what is inside the tube. resulting in your carb not getting fuel. it can be caused by heat, excessive throttle yanking, overfilling, and also a faulty gas cap. but a combination of any makes it ten times worse. if your bike stalls just take off your gas cap and put it back on. it should work fine until you "fix" the "glitch"

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:50 pm

vespatech wrote:think of a vacuum pulling on both sides of a tube with the same pressure, neither will get what is inside the tube. resulting in your carb not getting fuel. it can be caused by heat, excessive throttle yanking, overfilling, and also a faulty gas cap. but a combination of any makes it ten times worse. if your bike stalls just take off your gas cap and put it back on. it should work fine until you "fix" the "glitch"

Thanks for the explanation!
I think (maybe) in some of these instances, gas in the vapor recovery system restricted airflow into the carb for some additional issues.

Glen G · Post by **Glen G** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:40 am

Hey Ericalm, so if my dealer removed the vapor recover system when they installed the new cap this week, would you be concerned about that? I'm guessing it would not be a mechanical problem, but don't know if my state of Arizona inspects for this?

I'm just wondering

Thanks

G.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:41 am

I doubt they would inspect it, best to leave it there, just dont over fill, and use the gas cap.

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:01 am

Glen G wrote:Hey Ericalm, so if my dealer removed the vapor recover system when they installed the new cap this week, would you be concerned about that? I'm guessing it would not be a mechanical problem, but don't know if my state of Arizona inspects for this?

I actually don't know if AZ inspects for it. Do you have to get your scoot inspected or smog tested? Even in CA we don't have to do that. In fact, the vapor system on some Vespas cause so many problems, many people yank the hose out the first week they own one.

Glen G · Post by **Glen G** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:37 am

Yea, I think you're right. I'm not gonna sweat it... Anyway, so far it's been running great. And we've had 115 temps everyday this week. If it was gonna happen again, it would have. Really Love the buddy. ... Now I'm wanting to get another scooter and let my wife have the buddy 125 (which is why I was so worried about these little problems)....so Whats next.I was thinking about one of the 150 Buddys. My dealer said he thinks the Buddy's are just a tad less work than the Stellas (even thought I love the look) but Ijust don't have the time to do tinker repairs... any advice.?

fiver1971 · Post by **fiver1971** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:48 am

ERICALM wrote: I just spoke with Phil McCaleb (owner of Genuine) about this. The issue is solely with the gas caps, not the tanks themselves. Genuine is sending out replacement gas caps to all dealers. They are also sending stickers warning riders not to overfill the tanks.

So there you are—the official word!_________________________________

So I'm curious, so we need to contact our local dealer and ask for one of these new gas caps, or should the dealer or genuine contact us? I know that when I've bought cars, if there was a product replacement call for a safety issue, they sent all new owners a letter saying to go into the local car dealer for the service to be done at no charge. It'd be great if this was the case with Genuine and how they stand behind their product line if it's still under warranty time frame. What do you think?

addictionriot · Post by **addictionriot** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:59 am

cool.. I actually havent had the problem yet but if my dealer wants to fix it before it does become a problem that would be nice... wonder if they can do that while im in Blooms next week hmm... time for a phone call.

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:23 am

fiver1971 wrote:ERICALM wrote: I just spoke with Phil McCaleb (owner of Genuine) about this. The issue is solely with the gas caps, not the tanks themselves. Genuine is sending out replacement gas caps to all dealers. They are also sending stickers warning riders not to overfill the tanks.

So there you are—the official word!_________________________________

So I'm curious, so we need to contact our local dealer and ask for one of these new gas caps, or should the dealer or genuine contact us? I know that when I've bought cars, if there was a product replacement call for a safety issue, they sent all new owners a letter saying to go into the local car dealer for the service to be done at no charge. It'd be great if this was the case with Genuine and how they stand behind their product line if it's still under warranty time frame. What do you think?

This isn't a product replacement call for a safety issue... As far as I know it's more "if you've had this problem, get yourself a new gas cap." There shouldn't be any charge for the new caps.

I think how it's handled is more up to the dealers—Genuine (and other scooter companies for that matter) doesn't really provide that kind of direct-to-consumer customer service. They send scooters to their dealers and supply them with parts. They back the warranty. The fact that owners can email or call Genuine and get any kind of personal, individual response at all is amazing, really. I sure as hell couldn't have spoken with the owner of any other scooter company to find out how an issue was being handled. (This is not something I do often, BTW, but I felt like this was very important and that we get the facts on the site before they were overtaken by hearsay.)

brimstone · Post by **brimstone** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:40 am

chancerbeans13 wrote:Me either, I know what they are talking about, but have not experienced this phenomenon known as (finger quotes) Vapor Lock (finger quotes). Wow, did I feel like Dr. Evil just know.....LOL

minnie-me, stop humping the buddy.

riancurtis · Post by **riancurtis** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:17 pm

my dealer definitely said that they were just drilling their owns holes in the gas tank and told me to take about a 3/16 bit and drill a hole straight downthe cap from the top down right next to the handle.

my dealer is 3 hours away so i cannot exactly take it there. that said, that kind of sucks. I dont want to drill a hole if they are supplying new caps.

bottom line is, i guess i will drill a hole. 3/16 sound about right to anyone who has done it?

brimstone · Post by **brimstone** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:21 pm

if they're supplying new caps....you should be able to get one under warranty later when they arrive. but in the mean time go ahead and "band aid" it.

anndelise · Post by **anndelise** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:35 pm

Yesterday I called my local dealer and asked them about the gas tank vapor lock stalling thing. He said he hadn't heard of anything like that. He also said that they've sold a lot of Buddies the past few months and if there was an issue then surely they'd have heard something about it.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:43 pm

Stellas are an old bike built today with a warranty. It's got technology from the 1970's in it. Your dealer is right when he says you will be tinkering more with it. But in terms of parts availability, the stella is much better since it uses 99% the same parts as a px150.

Glen G · Post by **Glen G** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:29 pm

anndelise wrote:Yesterday I called my local dealer and asked them about the gas tank vapor lock stalling thing. He said he hadn't heard of anything like that. He also said that they've sold a lot of Buddies the past few months and if there was an issue then surely they'd have heard something about it.

Hi anndelise, yea, my dealer pretty much same thing, only mine and one other the sold had this problem. So that's good.

sotied · Post by **sotied** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:01 pm

riancurtis wrote:my dealer definitely said that they were just drilling their owns holes in the gas tank and told me to take about a 3/16 bit and drill a hole straight downthe cap from the top down right next to the handle.

my dealer is 3 hours away so i cannot exactly take it there. that said, that kind of sucks. I dont want to drill a hole if they are supplying new caps.

bottom line is, i guess i will drill a hole. 3/16 sound about right to anyone who has done it?

I just used...I mean the burglar who vandalized my gas cap (have to still say that until it becomes a true warranty fix and not some buddy lore), used the smallest drill bit in the case.

The only thing that has to get through is oxygen, so it can be pretty much as tiny as you want.

One hole in the center bottom of the cap (inside the rubber ring area) and one hole in the handle ridge on the outside of the cap.

The holes on mine are thusly......

Modern Buddy

Flawed Gas Tank Design on 08 Buddys

Flawed Gas Tank Design on 08 Buddys

My dealer rocks

First Post

08 Gas caps

Re: 08 Gas caps

removed recovery

Re: removed recovery

thanks